Casual sexual violence in dating

[queenofknives]

Article about how casual sex is increasingly violent www.persuasion.community/p/brutal-in-the-bedroom?token=eyJ1c2VyX2lkIjo1MzYxNzg3LCJwb3N0X2lkIjoyMDA4Mzk1MywiXyI6IkFkN0xoIiwiaWF0IjoxNjA5MDcyMTg1LCJleHAiOjE2MDkwNzU3ODUsImlzcyI6InB1Yi02MTU3OSIsInN1YiI6InBvc3QtcmVhY3Rpb24ifQ.g39ST8rlpyXaH-Rkstegy6n41T6MMOc-zKwIKegeZt0

I’m just desperately trying to rationalise and find some sort of answer to this all of this because it is so depressing. I’m not in bad faith - I just genuinely can’t understand opening up to someone that quickly as I’m a very closed person who doesn’t trust anyone (including even on a friendship level).

Sorry this happened to everyone.

I’m going to stop posting in feminism I think.

I do think it would be a shame though if discussions about the wisdom or otherwise of sleeping with strangers and seeing sex as something completely separate from an ongoing relationship were entirely off limits . Seems to me that while you may end up with a fab one night stand, it’s pretty risky. I don’t see why that shouldn’t be discussed. Do you really think this has nothing to do with the problem? Men and teen boys clearly have normalised the idea that they should get access to female bodies pretty much immediately and with no effort whatsoever - and even worse, access to abuse them. How can we change this expectation? You’re right, women are not to blame for male violence but we can’t change things on our own can we? What can we realistically do?

@Grellbunt

I’m going to be slated no doubt as old fashioned, but is it a good idea to have sex with someone you hardly know? Maybe there is value in getting to know someone before moving to sex. Surely sex should be gatekept a bit? I wouldn’t want to get so vulnerable with someone until I was sure I actually liked them and they were at least halfway decent. Does that mean if I were young today I’d be single forever because nobody would keep dating me?

It's always going to be a risk for a woman, or even a man, to have sex with a man they don't really know.

There is some risk for a man from a woman but that is in terms of things like STIs which of course work both ways.

We can say it shouldn't be all we like but a sexual marketplace is by nature risky.

Don’t stop posting, believe me I spent a lot of time rationalising and kept landing where you are, that this was my fault. I still fight that now. I should have waited longer, I should have never gone to his home, I should have picked up the red flags, maybe I wasn’t enough when I cried and screamed, maybe he thought it was a game, maybe I should have been clearer in my “nos” maybe I should not have frozen maybe I should have tried to run.

Spending time learning helps, spending time realising there is literally nothing you can do to truly keep yourself completely safe helps. That when they have decided to abuse there is nothing you can do to stop them and that’s not your fault. It’s a hard realisation but true.

These men don’t portray their actions earlier unless they are upfront and belong on specialist “sites”. They inherently know what they want is rarely what a woman wants and consciously or unconsciously (which is more scary) use her natural desire to please and be trusting to coerce a situation. I believe that man I reported genuinely convinces himself he’s done nothing wrong as he’s picked more vulnerable women to abuse before. But for that I won’t let it go.

And it isn’t yet all men, I have male friends and family who I believe would not want to hurt someone. But good men get tarred and the cycle loops to a worse place.

Don't go Grellbunt
I didn't take your post as victim blaming.
I think many women have one night stands and some are fun and some best forgotten but they don't usually lead to long term relationships. With the normalisation of violence in sex I think it's quite reasonable to wonder if it wouldn't be wise to take things more slowly. I don't in any way absolve the men or blame the women.

Discussion up thread is very relevant I feel.

*In the world of OLD, you don't really know your date, they could be anyone. They are just the human embodyment of an online character. It's therefore eaiser to dehumanise your date, instead using them as a vessel to indulge your fantasy, or try out the porn acts you have seen IRL.

I wonder if the men who are choking and smacking dates, would also do that to a work colleague they started a romantic relationship with. Much in the same way a man will be violent and abusive to a sex worker but the perfect gent to his wife.

Sex is so easy to acsess and so impersonal now. It must be having an impact on how the participants behave. And if your victim partner doesn't like it - so what, you never have to see them again, and there is a million other prospective partners just a click away.*

Grellbrunt I don't think you should stop posting on FWR. I do think I would approach this from a different direction. Violent porn is a problem. Male entitlement is a problem. Male pattern violence is w problem. These are the things causing the violence. Let's address them and call them out, because telling women to police their behaviour, to stay at home, to avoid contact, is not managing the problem.

I think women felt they'd gotten to a place where they could have one night stands and casual flings without fear of being degraded or abused. That was certainly my experience in my late teens and early twenties. But times have changed now and sadly I do think women need to be far more wary. I met my partner about 5 years ago through mutual friends and, before we'd ever taken our clothes off, I outright asked him what he thought about this kind of violent and degrading sex/pornography. He was horrified at the thought of it but I had to ask just in order to feel comfortable getting into bed with him. Fortunately I was in my late twenties and confident enough to do that, I don't think it's as easy for young girls.

But if you fall into women should wait it still puts the onus on the woman. Yes it’s a fact that one night stands carry more risk, yes it’s a fact avoiding them makes someone safer but it’s a slippery slope to victims blaming.

Also it doesn’t eliminate risk, domestic violence and abuse shows us that women can know these men for a very long time before they show their abusive nature. It’s not only “promiscuous” women who don’t wait that get hurt.

We are still more likely to be raped and abused by a man we know. So time isn’t really a factor...

We can say it shouldn't be all we like but a sexual marketplace is by nature risky.

Chestnut I can't work out why you are ignoring the issues raised repeatedly on this thread. The proliferation and accessibility of abuse based porn is leading to the normalisation of violence in sexual relationships. This isn't good for anyone's self esteem but since women are for the most part the ones upon whom the violence is being carried out, it's particularly dangerous for women. We're seeing this with the rise of the rough sex defence as PPs have pointed out. The sexual 'marketplace' is by nature risky if you're selling sex, it shouldn't be risky in the average adult relationship because we should be raising boys and men to have respect for women, girls and women to have respect for themselves and we should be calling out violent, exploitative and degrading porn for what it is.

It was the posts about OLD being impersonal that actually prompted me to post my thoughts.

I was brought up in a very conservative environment (won’t surprise you!) so I find current mores somewhat baffling, I must admit (for boys and girls both).

Im horrified by violent porn and dreading my children being exposed to it. What can be done?

I don't think there has ever been a time when it has not been a risk to have a fairly anonymous sexual encounter with someone you have no real social contact with.

It's true that even 20 years ago the sexual expectations were different. But it's always been the case that a person you are alone with, who you don't know and who doesn't have any real reason to care about you, could be a dangerous person. Plenty of sexual assaults, or even just sex that is damaging, take place under those conditions and always has.

It's the same reason we tell people not to hitchhike. Sure, we should be able to trust that someone who offers us a lift will be just normal and take us down the road. Most are. But it's a risk.

So the increase in sexual encounters that involve casual violence, that's just inevitable? Nothing to do with exposure to porn or the way men perceive women?

Is there a link to current campaigning on violent porn? I’d like to get involved. Even though I know it is going to be like the labours of Hercules .

I appreciate the engagement. I do see your point. I will still advise my children to wait if they feel able (both sexes) and that sex should not involve violence. Given that we tell children to abhor violence in all other situations you wouldn’t think that would be controversial but somehow it does seem to be now.

@HecatesCats

We can say it shouldn't be all we like but a sexual marketplace is by nature risky.

Chestnut I can't work out why you are ignoring the issues raised repeatedly on this thread. The proliferation and accessibility of abuse based porn is leading to the normalisation of violence in sexual relationships. This isn't good for anyone's self esteem but since women are for the most part the ones upon whom the violence is being carried out, it's particularly dangerous for women. We're seeing this with the rise of the rough sex defence as PPs have pointed out. The sexual 'marketplace' is by nature risky if you're selling sex, it shouldn't be risky in the average adult relationship because we should be raising boys and men to have respect for women, girls and women to have respect for themselves and we should be calling out violent, exploitative and degrading porn for what it is.

I don't mean selling sex by "sexual marketplace", I mean the fairly casual exchange of it without any other commitments involved.

I'm not ignoring what people are saying, either, but what I am saying is that it really doesn't matter if any of us think strangers should be nice to us. Of course they should be.

But there has never, in all of human history, been a society where everyone is nice. And women are always somewhat more vulnerable physically than men, and sexually, and that's not something that can be changed. And sex, maybe more than most human activities, seems to invoke very primitive behaviour in people, a tendency to walk on the edge.

Every society that has been more than just a free-for-all has attempted to control this through social means. That includes normalising some behaviours while censuring others. And also risk-control at the social level.

Our society has tried to let go of both of these in an effort to liberate women's sexuality. First by avoiding censure of more and more activities. That's what is behind a lot of the direction porn has taken, and why it's not seen as a questionable niche interest. And we've also wanted to loosen social controls around risk exposure.

Those may or may not have been desirable things in themselves, but actions and changes always have results, and sometimes unexpected ones. But when you have a normalisation of any more extreme sexual practices, along with a normalisation of sexual encounters where it is easier to objectify people because you really don't know them, and also where they are in a position to make you physically vulnerable - that creates the conditions where you will have a lot more dehumanising sexual encounters and people behaving as if others are sexual objects.

Human beings dehumanise others really easily, all the time, in sex, in economics, in every way. Counteracting that always seems to involve making people see others as human in fact, not just in theory.

Chestnut, you're doing a lot of dancing around the issue of male violence here.

"And actually I think that you should be able to sleep with someone when you want and not expect to be abused and attacked."
Exactly.
Male violence by sick men is never our fault.
I had a few one night stands when I was younger. Anal was never expected. Never even came up in conversation.
I never felt unsafe even if it turned out to be less than fulfilling.
None of those men ever slapped me or said disgusting scary things to me.
The person who violated me had been known to me for 4 years.
We've been on holiday together.
We've got mutual acquaintances.
I didn't know he was sick until he showed me he is.
Im not taking any blame for whatever is wrong with him.
Obviously I will think twice next time because it has scared me and affected me quite badly.
So what do we do?
Never have relationships?
It seems like we can never really be safe, even in long relationships men hurt the women they're supposed to care about.
How do we know which ones are sick and which are decent until its too late?
This awful porn is making larger proportions of men unsafe to be with.
That's not our fault.

I actually agree that waiting is good advice for young people but also I think we need to provide proper sex education too. A lot of kids are being 'educated' by porn and that's really scary.

I didn't read your post as victim blaming @Grellbunt or think that was your intention but I agree with pp we need to be vigilant about putting the responsibility for violence with the perpetrator. Waiting won't help if someone is just waiting to abuse you. I intend to do exactly what a pp said and ask the porn question early on in any dating scenario. But I know that is only a partial and personal solution.

As for what can be done, I know that Gail Dines has been campaigning on this for a while. Her ted talk is worth watching and might be a good place to start.

@HecatesCats

So the increase in sexual encounters that involve casual violence, that's just inevitable? Nothing to do with exposure to porn or the way men perceive women?

Violent porn is contributing to the change in what people are seeing as normal expectations in sexual encounters for sure.

It's also the case that if you want to avoid that, it helps to get to know the person you are going to have sex with, and maybe, you know, talk about their values and believes around things like sex and porn.

Of course people may lie, but if someone is out for casual sexual violence they may well not be bothered with the work of getting to know someone.

Or to put it another way, if you meet some guy at a club and go to his place fo sex, you know pretty much zero about him. There is a big wide open field of things you don't know about that person. (It makes me think of those t-shirts that say "I would never date a Tory". You just wouldn't know.)

But regardless of the change in pornography, casual sex is always a risk, and no, you can't just make that go away. Whether or not it is fair. Some people are bad people. Some people don't like women. Some think other people exist for their pleasure. Lots of things are risks and we may take the risk anyway, but it's foolish to not acknowledge that it exists.

"Some people don't like women". Who are you talking about Chestnut? We know the stats on violence against women inside out here. Who's carrying it out?

@HecatesCats

Chestnut, you're doing a lot of dancing around the issue of male violence here.

Not at all, I'm quite sure about male violence. You seem less so, however.

What's your plan? Tell men not to perpetrate sexual violence?

I think getting rid of violent porn would be great. I think getting rid of all porn would be great. I'd probably go further with than that then you might, into things like advertising and film that isn't porn.

But the reason we have that increase of pornography, and of violent porn specifically, isn't some random thing. It comes out of three things: the nature of human sexual response; the sexual revolution and naturalistic fallacy about sex, and the commoditisation of sex and especially pornography.

The first of those is not really changeable, that's just what we have to work with. I don't see the others as changing any time soon, and the removal of sexual barriers is in itself part of the second of those.

Oh I think the commoditisation of sex and pornography is far and away the most important of the three things you've listed in terms of the impact on sexual proclivities. I think reigning that in and condemning violent pornography would in effect contribute to 'telling men not to perpetrate sexual violence' and I think you miss misogyny and the sexual objectification of women out deliberately. Because I don't think violent porn would be as prevalent if the dehumanisation of women wasn't a factor.

I won’t even do online dating which in itself marks one out as weird it seems. My objection has always been I would never have picked all of my best friends out from their online profiles: some of my best mates have different politics; different religions different interests to me. And i could so easily have thought .. I’d never be friends with x she’s a Tory or I’m not a Christian so I won’t have much in common with her .. not the case at all. So I’d been worried about picking out guys for the wrong reasons because we appeared to have things in common .. but with the amount of weird violent guys out there I’d leave well alone. If society only treated single people especially single women better women would have more power against male violence. Financially it’s really tough being lifelong single

What's your plan? Tell men not to perpetrate sexual violence

Well the way we have since time began told women to keep themselves safe has not worked. So actually yeah, let's tell the men off for their violent behaviour.
I do not believe the porn genie can ever go back in the bottle, so that stuff is out there now for eternity. But there must be a mechanism to stop more being made, to prevent underage kids seeing it. To slow down this spread of supposed consent to things that actively hurt women.
And by hurt I dont just mean degrading acts and mental torture, I mean also the very real fallout of physical ailments that often happen even when really consenting adults have rough sex, like prolapsed etc.

Thank you Drizzle, Blubell and Fluffy. Your experiences are important and your voices deserve to be heard. This is such a huge issue, one that is likely to affect most of our young people, directly or indirectly. As the mother of daughters, it's one that concerns me enormously. But, it doesn't seem to get the airtime it deserves. Maybe it would be helpful to start a petition to have it discussed in Parliament. I don't think Liz Truss has done much on this issue yet.