Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
OP posts:
PlainHonesty · 27/12/2020 20:37

Some very sad stories here. It's not all bad though. There are lots of normal men out there, quite happy with more 'normal' consensual sexual activity.

queenofknives · 27/12/2020 22:28

I'm not sure why you felt the need to say that @PlainHonesty. I'd say being raped is more than a 'sad story' and the experiences discussed in the article are not 'sad' - they are abusive.

OP posts:
Gurufloof · 27/12/2020 23:00

There are lots of normal men out there, quite happy with more 'normal' consensual sexual activity
So like how do we tell the normal ones from the pornsick ones without sleeping with them?
I'm of the same mind as pps, I will not bother with men again come the end of my current ltr.

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 28/12/2020 00:58

sexual expression as a women seems to be more and more about demonstrating 'empowerment' by claiming ownership over and enjoyment in degradation

This. It's like men claiming the 'right' to occupy women'-only spaces. Why did this happen? When and where did society take such a crazy wrong turn?

SantasAnus · 28/12/2020 01:25

I often wonder if this is part of the reason why young people are engaged in so much 'identity' exploration - instead of sex seeming like an exciting adventure to embark upon, it probably seems quite terrifying (to both sexes). Maybe some of the turn towards embracing different gender identities is driven by a need to establish some kind of control or boundaries around sexual activity

Wow, this has genuinely never crossed my mind, but it absolutely makes sense! Especially due to the expectations of young girls, sexually. I'm sure they are fully aware of the type of porn boys are watching these days.

notyourhandmaid · 28/12/2020 02:11

This is so bleak.

Men have always pressured women into sexual acts - not that women don't enjoy sex, but they (tend to) have a lower sex drive and also are aware of the potential consequences. The risk is greater; the potential for pleasure lesser (seeing as studies consistently show how women are less likely than men to orgasm during penetrative sex).

I understand the impulse many young women have to go along with all of this and be 'cool' and not be 'prudes' - to view it as 'empowering'. And maybe it is for some. But genuine empowerment lets you say 'no' too.

ChestnutStuffing · 28/12/2020 02:52

@queenofknives

I'm so sorry Drizzle. That sounds horrendous.

I do believe there are 'normal' young men out there who are repulsed by porn and who genuinely like women and want to share sexual intimacy. However, I also think that the general culture makes them the outliers and weirdos. It is really distressing to think about how sex looks more and more like assault, but porn is so inhumane and actually anti-human, I have to believe that many young people will start to reject it altogether.

The thing with porn is that it's designed to create a sexual response, it's not really anyone's fault that it does that when you are a teenager.

It can be an issue with girls as well, and that's something that needs thinking about - a friend of mine who works in school counselling says she now sees a lot more girls confused about a variety of sexual issues, because they've watched porn and found all kinds of things arousing. The tendency now is to see these things as identity issues. This may well play into young women accepting certain things from boys they are involved with. It's one thing to be aroused by something you see, and another to actually do it, but many aren't very aware of that. Especially since many young women take some time to figure themselves out sexually even under normal circumstances.

The cultural trappings of sex can be pretty elaborate and strange, IMO, without people rejecting them on a wide basis. Maybe because our internal experience of it is so far from a rational process, it's very lizard-brain stuff. Our experience of sex shapes us in a basic way that can stay with us, even when we know it's unhealthy.

ChestnutStuffing · 28/12/2020 03:00

To add to that - the underlying problem is the whole liberal premise, which is that our personal experience is fine, whatever it is, so long as it isn't imposed on others.

Now, in this case there is some real reason to say it is being imposed on others. But in society at large, people are not willing to make the leap from that to say, the way this person has been formed by their culture, their sexual experience, their beliefs, is unhealthy to them and society at large. They don't want to say, actually, we should not encourage people to be turned on by x, y, or z. Not only might it impact others badly, it is bad for those individuals in terms of mental health, how they relate to others, etc. Because we don't want to put a moral spin on it, that's anti-liberal. People have to decide what is a healthy sexuality themselves, and we are very uncomfortable talking about a moral sexuality at all.

I would say, a sexual life that revolves around pretend violence, or even fantasy life that revolves around it, is not healthy. Not only because one day it might affect others, but because it is not good for the individual, it affects how they think and feel about other people. Maybe only a little, sometimes, but maybe not. People should try and avoid thinking that way, and while it's human to fail at times we can avoid exposing ourselves to thinks that make it harder.

But that's a very illiberal view on my part.

BounceyBumblebee · 28/12/2020 08:53

I wonder if the way people are meeting sexual partners is having an impact on how they are treating each other in the sack.

I'm slightly to old for OLD. So I, like many other women of my age met my partner in the work place. The only other way to meet a partner was through education settings, mutual friends or chance meetings. In all bar the last, your partner knows you as a full person, mutual respect, friendship and effection would usually be present before you get to the bedroom. So unless the man is a sadist, he's not going to want to inflict pain on you. I know my dh doesn't want to see me chocking or wincing in pain. Most humans don't actually want to inflict pain on others outside of in anger.

In the world of OLD, you don't really know your date, they could be anyone. They are just the human embodyment of an online character. It's therefore eaiser to dehumanise your date, instead using them as a vessel to indulge your fantasy, or try out the porn acts you have seen IRL.

I wonder if the men who are choking and smacking dates, would also do that to a work colleague they started a romantic relationship with. Much in the same way a man will be violent and abusive to a sex worker but the perfect gent to his wife.

Sex is so easy to acsess and so impersonal now. It must be having an impact on how the participants behave. And if your victim partner doesn't like it - so what, you never have to see them again, and there is a million other prospective partners just a click away.

queenofknives · 28/12/2020 09:00

I think I agree with your illiberal view chestnut. Actually I think that because this is happening to children and young people there is a case for arguing adults need to protect them. The trouble is we don't want adults involved in adolescents' sex lives. But it seems utterly terrifying to just leave them to try to work this out for themselves.

You're right too, that this is lizard brain stuff. And sexuality can come with a deep sense of shame.

Thanks for these insights. I wish I knew how to push back against this stuff.

OP posts:
queenofknives · 28/12/2020 09:10

Oh that's such a good insight about OLD. I might even go further and say that social media in general encourages this view of each other as not quite real. It is almost like social media is real, and real life is a poor imitation (a world where you're not in control of everything). It is noticeable that young people also produce a lot of images of themselves, including lots of sexual images. It's almost like they are more real and present online than in the physical, material world. That has to be affecting their sense of themselves as living in bodies, and their awareness of the needs and integrity of their bodies. In fact I think people are often quite alienated from their bodies. It all adds up to quite a frightening picture.

OP posts:
Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 28/12/2020 09:11

@EmbarrassingAdmissions

If my relationship broke down or my husband were to pre-decease me, I have no interest in another relationship because I have no interest in navigating modern mores in this area. Given what I hear about the behaviour of some older men, I wouldn't even feel that knowing a chap for a long time would give me insight into how he would behave in an intimate relationship.
Snap.
carlaCox · 28/12/2020 09:11

It really upsets me that even children's charities aren't taking the damage that comes with viewing porn at a young age seriously. I remember the first time I was exposed to porn very vividly. I was about 11 and it was a GQ magazine which had pictures of the "world's largest gangbang". It was essentially a pornstar in the back of a van with a queue of hundreds of disgusting looking men lining up to have sex with her. There were graphic details in there about the whole process which I won't burden you all with. I genuinely believe that it has negatively affected me to this day and yet this is nothing compared to the kinds of stuff available online now.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 28/12/2020 09:22

Maybe some of the turn towards embracing different gender identities is driven by a need to establish some kind of control or boundaries around sexual activity

Also declaring yourself as "ace" (asexual)

MrsFluffyMuff · 28/12/2020 09:24

If sexual violence is 'normal' and porn normalises men getting off on violently abusing women, then no doubt many women are having horrible, abusive sexual experiences and blaming themselves for not enjoying it.

Been there done that. I've been slapped, choked, had my hair pulled far too hard, been spat on, had anal sex against my will, had my arm twisted round my back so I couldn't move, had my nipples bitten so hard they were bruised for a week, and I came away from those experiences wondering what the hell was wrong with me for not enjoying it.

Imnobody4 · 28/12/2020 09:30

I heard a psychologist (can't remember who) say that porn was hacking into the male sex drive.

It's like the food industry hacking into our liking of sweet things to produce obesity and a public health disaster. The process is so successful because we haven't evolved a way to withstand it.

Also there's a difference between wanting and liking. (Dopomine Theory, Kent Berridge) Expt placed electrodes in brain of gay man (bad) to stimulate sexual desires, these included extreme and bizarre. The point is he experienced no pleasure, they'd expected him to say it was fantastic.

I'm starting to wonder if sex addiction does exist. It's a paradox that just when we've established that sex is not a sin we've managed to turn it into a kind of atrocity.

queenofknives · 28/12/2020 09:34

Holy shit @MrsFluffyMuff that is so awful. I hope you are safe now Flowers

OP posts:
DisorganisedPurpose · 28/12/2020 09:40

Porn is so damaging. Why is it that men get off on this violence. Must be something deep in their psychology. Also sex having become so available means vanilla sex not exciting any more? But it's odd isn't it, why this violence and abuse has to be involved. Perhaps the movement of feminism has downgraded men in society and there is deep resentment that even they don't understand. It needs to be analysed and it needs to be stopped. Are there any campaigns to publicise the dangers more and reign it back. I'd like to get to the bottom of the psychology of it all. It horrifies me and is bad for both men and women and ultimately society.

MrsFluffyMuff · 28/12/2020 10:48

Thanks @queenofknives, I am safe now. It wasn't just one man, it was 3 in different short term relationships a few years ago. Thankfully my partner hates anything to do with violence or pain and would be immediately turned off if he thought I was hurting at all!

theconstantinoplegardener · 28/12/2020 15:22

@BounceyBumblebee I have been wondering something similar myself. Is it easier for a man to objectify a woman who he's only been on one or two dates with, compared to one he's known for months as a friend (or work colleague) first?

Recently, I read about a psychiatrist who worked with men who liked to view child abuse online. He found that they were able to watch the abuse dispassionately, but became very distressed when he asked them to think about the child as a real person - what they might be learning about at school, what their hobbies might be, did they have any pets etc.

I wonder if parallels could be drawn between these two situations. Those of you who have been unfortunate enough to experience these horrendous dating experiences, would you feel able to share how well you knew the man who treated you in this way, please?

ChestnutStuffing · 28/12/2020 15:43

I wonder about the OLD thing too. It's interesting that for many younger people especially, dating people at work is now considered a big no-no because of the possibility of sexual harassment. I met my husband at work, in fact he was mu supervisor, and I know a lot of people my age for whom that is the case. We've shut down so many in-person places where relationships can start, for fear of exploitation, that we've kind of driven them into this impersonal realm. Not just that they don't know each other, but also they don't know any of the same people. If my dh had been a weirdo abusive prick when we both worked at the same place, it could have had serious consequences for him, even if just social ones. Not every workplace is like that, but with OLD there are zero social consequences if you are an abusive prick but not rising to the level of legal action.

ChestnutStuffing · 28/12/2020 15:49

I also think there has been a move, since the 60s, to take a naturalistic view of sexual activity, without acknowledging that it is overlaid with cultural expectation.

Particularly things like making fun of people who had only tried the missionary position, or didn't think oral sex was just great. These were seen as prudish. According to this naturalist view all these activities that anyone thought of were good and enjoyable so long as someone liked them.

It didn't seem to occur to them that they were just setting up a new set of cultural expectations - that everyone should have a repertoire of positions, that a good lover liked performing oral sex, etc. And anything else that someone wanted or liked could equally be seen as normal and then become an expectation - anal sex, waxing the genitals, light BDSM, not-light BDSM...

stickygotstuck · 28/12/2020 15:51

Placemarking. Very insightful points about identity and OLD.

User158340 · 28/12/2020 15:54

@HecatesCats

It's really upsetting and redolent of the way in which porn objectifies women so that their suffering becomes necessary for male pleasure. Women socialised to please males must absorb this and pretend to enjoy it too, indeed their 'enjoyment' is now necessary to demonstrate their 'empowerment'. I do also wonder if it's important that sexual relationships are anything but the dreaded 'vanilla' nowadays - which in reality might mean genuine respect (and self respect), care and in actual fact real pleasure for women.

When I was in my late teens/early twenties there was a lot of peer group pressure to say you enjoyed anal sex. Whilst there are women who enjoy anal sex, it's much more pleasurable for the average man, because of their anatomy, than it is for the average woman. I see this as an extension of that, in this case I'm sure there are women who enjoy BDSM but the normalisation of violent porn means the average young woman must now demonstrate they enjoy their own degradation (because it ultimately pleases men).

How deeply have women internalised this though? It wasn't men emptying the bookshelves and wetting themselves over 50 Shades of Grey which is basically a book about sexual violence against women.
User158340 · 28/12/2020 15:55

@DisorganisedPurpose

Porn is so damaging. Why is it that men get off on this violence. Must be something deep in their psychology. Also sex having become so available means vanilla sex not exciting any more? But it's odd isn't it, why this violence and abuse has to be involved. Perhaps the movement of feminism has downgraded men in society and there is deep resentment that even they don't understand. It needs to be analysed and it needs to be stopped. Are there any campaigns to publicise the dangers more and reign it back. I'd like to get to the bottom of the psychology of it all. It horrifies me and is bad for both men and women and ultimately society.
Probably the same reason women get on 50 Shades type crap.

Human depravity.

Swipe left for the next trending thread