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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
OP posts:
DrizzleandDamp · 28/12/2020 16:08

Mine was 2 dates in.

And I think there is probably something in the fact you aren’t a human to them.

ChestnutStuffing · 28/12/2020 16:26

How deeply have women internalised this though? It wasn't men emptying the bookshelves and wetting themselves over 50 Shades of Grey which is basically a book about sexual violence against women.

Yeah, I am not convinced that it is helpful to see this as all about men being awful.

Fantasy around violence and sex seems to be something that is common both in males and females, and from well before porn was like it is now. I think men and women are both vulnerable to that kind of material, although men seem to prefer the visual presentation and women narrative and text. But that's a common difference between men and women in other areas too.

I read an interesting explanation of this some years ago based essentially on brain activity and things like hormones - basically it said that the same pathways and chemicals that related to aggression, fear, and pain, could during sexual activity lead to a heightening of sexual sensation, or a different kind of experience of sensation. For example, something that people don't always realise is that during sex, many of our senses are kind of dampened, even though we feel it's the opposite. So a hard or sharp touch can actually give a lot less sensation than it would under normal circumstances, and can also trigger a wave of chemicals that impact sexual experience.

When you look at it from that POV, it seems like a lot of what people are doing with some of these activities is trying to harness this sort of thing. Breaking taboos has a similar effect as well. All toward intensification of the sexual experience.

But in every case the more you use these techniques, the less "exciting" they become, and the less able the individual is to enjoy sex without them. Which leads to trying to push it even more.

This is exactly what has happened with porn. As people see more of it, it doesn't work as well, so the people selling it have to ramp it up to get the same effect.

There is no way that can fail to impact people's in-person experience of sex, you've trained the brain to react in a particular way.

So in a way, it's not at all a paradox that, as someone upthread said, by making sex not a sin we somehow made it awful. It's by not recognising that it is potentially dangerous, even when it's inside our own heads, that we have allowed it to manifest in ways that are absolutely dangerous and dehumanising.

queenofknives · 28/12/2020 16:44

I definitely don't see it as 'men being awful' (although some definitely are and many more act in awful ways that are 'normal' in society). I think the 50 shades thing is a bit different though - not really equivalent to porn. Yes, it presents sexual violence but it is presented as PASSION, UNCONTROLLABLE LUST, I WANT YOU I MUST HAVE YOU etc etc - the woman also is the main character, so isn't dehumanised even though the relationship is very 'problematic'. I just think it's different, not what I would call pornography at all. Also it was just a bit of a weird craze. My sister had a copy of the first book and I started reading it, got very bored, skimmed through to try to find the good bits, and gave up when I got to the chapter that is literally written as a legal contract. It was the most boring thing I'd ever read and I suspect most readers felt the same way, tbh.

OP posts:
HecatesCats · 28/12/2020 17:02

Yeah, I am not convinced that it is helpful to see this as all about men being awful.

I don't think it is either, but I do see who is being objectified, hit, pinched and spat on etc in the majority of this porn.

EarthSight · 28/12/2020 17:08

How sexual expression as a women seems to be more and more about demonstrating 'empowerment' by claiming ownership over and enjoyment in degradation

@HecatesCats So true

queenofknives · 28/12/2020 17:08

@HecatesCats

Yeah, I am not convinced that it is helpful to see this as all about men being awful.

I don't think it is either, but I do see who is being objectified, hit, pinched and spat on etc in the majority of this porn.

Yes, this. As far as adults are concerned I think it is clear that the harms are mostly to women. We could look at the 'rough sex' murder defence as part of this situation too.

I do think many young boys must feel absolutely terrified by porn as well though. Did any of you ever watch Gail Dines' ted talk about porn? It was from quite a few years ago, but very shocking and she discussed the effect on boys as well as girls. Ultimately, it is horrible for children of both sexes to be exposed to porn.

OP posts:
ChestnutStuffing · 28/12/2020 17:18

@queenofknives

I definitely don't see it as 'men being awful' (although some definitely are and many more act in awful ways that are 'normal' in society). I think the 50 shades thing is a bit different though - not really equivalent to porn. Yes, it presents sexual violence but it is presented as PASSION, UNCONTROLLABLE LUST, I WANT YOU I MUST HAVE YOU etc etc - the woman also is the main character, so isn't dehumanised even though the relationship is very 'problematic'. I just think it's different, not what I would call pornography at all. Also it was just a bit of a weird craze. My sister had a copy of the first book and I started reading it, got very bored, skimmed through to try to find the good bits, and gave up when I got to the chapter that is literally written as a legal contract. It was the most boring thing I'd ever read and I suspect most readers felt the same way, tbh.
50 Shades type stuff isn't a fad IMO, just the form.

Women's literature in the form of romance novels has been full of that kind of thing for decades. And there are a lot of women who read tons of the stuff. Whether it's presented as a historical thing, or a modern setting, the trope of some level of coercion and even violence is really common. It's been one of the most common forms of women's fantasy since they started tracking such things. Romance is one of the only area publishers now reliably make money, because they just need to produce such quantities to keep up with the readers.

It's not precisely the same mechanism as men, no, but I would say that in some ways it's very much complimentary, and maybe that's why it works. As for the characters not being objects - well, they sure aren't real people.

I don't really like apologising for this kind of thing as "not porn" because it's not the same as men's porn. It doesn't usually have the same problematic elements in terms of film production with real actors. It has more narrative. But it des affect how people think and what they find sexually arousing and it exists largely for the purpose of sweeping the reader into a sexual fantasy that they find more satisfying than the real thing. Often in what would be considered unhealthy settings and situations, or wildly unrealistic. Some also prey on taboos just like visual porn - monster-porn romance novels are a thing because they push boundaries, around around beastiality in a lot of cases.

If male-oriented porn is setting up men to be more aggressive than is right, or want to push boundaries to get off, this stuff is setting up women to see aggression as a turn on and also to want those boundaries pushed.

HecatesCats · 28/12/2020 17:21

I just don't accept Chestnut that this is what the majority of women desire. There are upsetting testimonies from women on this thread that evidence this.

HecatesCats · 28/12/2020 17:23

And the kind of degrading porn that's being widely accessed on sites like porn hub on a regular basis bears little similarity to romantic novels!

Blubellsarebells · 28/12/2020 17:37

Comparing 50 shades to violent porn is really poor in my opinion.
Its basically 'women do/want it too'.
As if 2 books written by one women where zero women were actually harmed is remotely the same as millions of videos of real women being tortured and hurt.
Its not comparable. At all.
My bad experience, nothing like some of the others detailed, he didnt actually hurt me, just said strange things, inlcuding that he didnt care if I enjoyed it, escalating to saying things that frightened me to the point I thought he might rape me.
I couldnt get away so I stayed and went along.
Ive known him for years, on off type thing, met in real life not old.
Hes done and said strange things before but never anything that scared me until that time.

Imsosorryalan75 · 28/12/2020 17:53

I find it very frightening as a mother of 2 daughters, growing up in this world. It terrifies me to think that they will be put in this position one day. Apart from teaching them self defense! what can we do as individuals to stem the flow of violent porn becoming the norm?

DrizzleandDamp · 28/12/2020 18:19

Hectates I would agree, not that I’ve read 50 shades as I never wanted to, but assuming it doesn’t cover being forced to eat shit and dragged around so much you have to have physio for a year!

FannyCann · 28/12/2020 18:40

Gosh MrsFluffyMuff that's awful. I'm so glad you are out of all that now and have a loving relationship.

I find it incredibly concerning, the extent to which these sorts of sexual experiences are normalised so that women on the receiving end put it down to a bad experience. Sorry MrsFluffyMuff - I'm certainly not aiming this at you personally or victim blaming. But back in my pre-marriage sex in the city days, (80's/90's) I never experienced anything like this, and if I had I would have reported the man to the police and complained of sexual assault. And I do believe the police would have taken the complaint seriously, especially if there was evidence of physical harm/bruising or other injuries. There is substantial anecdotal evidence that the police these days would dismiss such a complaint as 50 shades of fun and impossible to prosecute if they were interested at all.

Zorroforsorrow · 28/12/2020 18:42

Going back about seven years now I worked as a student advisor at a sixth form. Some of the things the girls would confide in me broke me. In a very small cohort 2 girls had anal sex as their first sexual experience. My office was unfortunately situated next to the boys toilets and had incredibly thin walls so I got to hear all the awful things they were saying about the girls. I was only in my early twenties at the time so there wasn't a huge age gap between us but the difference in attitudes and was massive. Porn and social media have a lot to answer for! I don't know if its better or worse now or if we just had a particularly toxic mix of students.

FannyCann · 28/12/2020 18:54

A post from Rosie Redstockings that illustrates the situation for young women.

realforwomen.wordpress.com/2015/04/08/in-response-to-owen-jones-rosie-redstockings-on-porn/

HecatesCats · 28/12/2020 18:55

From what I've seen of the young women showing off bruising on platforms like TikTok I'd say it's much worse now. Anything like that would have rung huge alarm bells when I was a teenager in the 90s. It's NOT OK.

HecatesCats · 28/12/2020 19:04

Drizzle, MrsFluffyMuff and Bluebells thank you for sharing your different experiences. They are important contributions to the discussion.

carlaCox · 28/12/2020 19:18

Zorro that breaks my heart, those poor girls.

Grellbunt · 28/12/2020 19:23

I’m going to be slated no doubt as old fashioned, but is it a good idea to have sex with someone you hardly know? Maybe there is value in getting to know someone before moving to sex. Surely sex should be gatekept a bit? I wouldn’t want to get so vulnerable with someone until I was sure I actually liked them and they were at least halfway decent. Does that mean if I were young today I’d be single forever because nobody would keep dating me?

Grellbunt · 28/12/2020 20:13

Ah, I’ve just realised that this is feminism chat...

pallisers · 28/12/2020 20:19

The thing about 50 shades (apart from it being a book and not an actual filming of a real woman being beaten/strangled) is that Christian Grey was not depicted as a normal man. It was quite clear in the book that his BDSM preferences arose from him being abused horribly as a child and then abused sexually as a young teenager. yeah it was a crap book but he was written as a deeply damaged abnormal man struggling with his demons- and being careful to get consent in writing - not mainstream, just what every man is like.

What kills me for my kid and especially for my daughters, is the idea that normal everyday men you might meet and have a date with - no back story- no abuse - might really like strangling you or having anal with minimal consent or not give a fuck about your pleasure, just because.

Drizzleanddamp and others - I'm so sorry men did this to you.

pallisers · 28/12/2020 20:20

@Grellbunt

Ah, I’ve just realised that this is feminism chat...
what does that mean? I'm a feminist and as it happens I didn't sleep with anyone I didn't know well. Some women do, some don't. not sure what it has to do with feminism?
queenofknives · 28/12/2020 20:30

@Grellbunt

I’m going to be slated no doubt as old fashioned, but is it a good idea to have sex with someone you hardly know? Maybe there is value in getting to know someone before moving to sex. Surely sex should be gatekept a bit? I wouldn’t want to get so vulnerable with someone until I was sure I actually liked them and they were at least halfway decent. Does that mean if I were young today I’d be single forever because nobody would keep dating me?
I think there is a huge amount of pressure on girls to have sex, be sexual, send naked pics etc. It's just 'normal' now. But also, as pp have said, you don't necessarily know what someone is going to be like sexually until you actually get to that point. Presumably they seem like nice guys until they spit on you or try to strangle you... and they might well say (maybe even believe) they thought that's what you wanted.
OP posts:
DrizzleandDamp · 28/12/2020 20:33

You’re right Grellbunt it was my own fault for being a slag, you should join the police.

I spoke to him for a few months before, I felt I knew him, clearly not. And actually I think that you should be able to sleep with someone when you want and not expect to be abused and attacked. That’s on them not the women.

HecatesCats · 28/12/2020 20:39

And actually I think that you should be able to sleep with someone when you want and not expect to be abused and attacked.

Women. Are. Not. To. Blame. For. Male. Violence.

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