James O'Brien 'How not to be Wrong'

[notassigned]

Includes a chapter on trans. The very first page includes the assumption that women like us don't want trans-identifying people to have the same rights as every other human.

I certainly believe that trans people should have all the same rights that I do. I don't believe I have rights to enter sports, prisons, toilets etc designated for the opposite sex.

@ZuttZeVootEeeVro

What is strange about the "genital checks" argument is that it's assuming that we don't know a persons sex the vast majority of the time.

Women's spaces have been set up for years without the need for genital checks. Why are males threatening us with them now?

Excellent point.

What is very interesting is he says that when he went shopping with his daughters he went into the changing rooms to see the clothes they tried on.

I find this very odd.

The standard norm is that the men hover outside the invisible barrier. And the women/ girls put the stuff on and emerge so they can have a look from the other side of the invisible barrier.

He says he went in with permission. From who? That is not clear.

The fact that he felt comfortable going into the women's fitting rooms, which is definitely IME just a no-no. Shows a certain self centred attitude, lack of consideration, and general arrogance.

I mean it's just Not Done.

Similarly, I hover outside the blokes ones and DH comes out so I can judge the clothes.

So he is coming at this from a certain angle of entitled cluelessness.

Like I say though. Given the readership of the book. His oblivious bloke status. It could have been a lot worse. He writes about how women live in a context of male dodginess and so it's understandable they don't want any dick people in there etc

The focus on bogs gets my goat.

This pants check thing.

NO. The point is. That men can be creepy without breaking laws. That there are a lot of weirdos about. Before men weren't supposed to be in there, and women tended to turn a blind eye. But if there was anything iffy, we could get him removed. Because men weren't supposed to be in there. Now, that option is eroded. Can you ask them to leave? Get the bouncer etc? Or, is that potentially a hate crime?

@NiceGerbil

I've just read the whole chapter.

Interesting. A lot to take issue with from a GC pov. But also. He says he just doesn't know. It confuses him. He talks to one person and thinks one thing, another person another.

He has no skin in the game which he also admits.

All in all he comes out on the be kind side. But he also says he feels that it's not right to have males in women's stuff on their say so. He quotes the JKR tweet that started it all off.

I think for a mainstream thing it's ok. I think he's not quite there yet. And the bits about right wing people leveraging the trans thing for their own ends is interesting.

Yeah I'm ok. This is a mainstream book remember. And while landing on one side, he acknowledges that its not cut and dried and he's really not sure.

This gives me hope. I listen to his radio show and like him. I think that saying that he is not sure is a really good start.

@Mollyollydolly

Cannot stand him. Arrogant, privileged, snide arsehole, not half as clever as he thinks he is. Won't listen to him, so patronising. He epitomises for me the type of person who caused Brexit - and I was a remainer. Listening to him would make me vote leave (if that makes sense).

Agree! He sneers at anyone who supported Brexit and openly characterises them as stupid. He is ghastly - and I say that as an ardent remainer.

He also can't win any argument without using the mute button. Easy to win if you can cut off your opponent mid-sentence.

midgebabe

Women want trans people to have all human rights

And extra trans specific rights because they need them

Happy also for transmen to retain their sex based women's rights ( they don't have to avail themselves of them)

Not happy if transwomen who are biologically male want to claim female sex based rights

Perfectly put midge.

MissLucy

Agree! He sneers at anyone who supported Brexit and openly characterises them as stupid. He is ghastly - and I say that as an ardent remainer.

He also can't win any argument without using the mute button. Easy to win if you can cut off your opponent mid-sentance

Absolutely agree. And I am a staunch Remainer.

He will never 'get it' until one of his own daughters is sexually assaulted/perved at #metoo

And seeing as his views against women are out in the open for them to read about, they'll probably keep any sexual assaults/ #metoo moments secret from him so as to to not lose his fatherly approval.

@NiceGerbil

I've just read the whole chapter.

Interesting. A lot to take issue with from a GC pov. But also. He says he just doesn't know. It confuses him. He talks to one person and thinks one thing, another person another.

He has no skin in the game which he also admits.

All in all he comes out on the be kind side. But he also says he feels that it's not right to have males in women's stuff on their say so. He quotes the JKR tweet that started it all off.

I think for a mainstream thing it's ok. I think he's not quite there yet. And the bits about right wing people leveraging the trans thing for their own ends is interesting.

Yeah I'm ok. This is a mainstream book remember. And while landing on one side, he acknowledges that its not cut and dried and he's really not sure.

That's how he came across in the podcast as well and to be fair that was how I was for a long period of time. Knew there was some concerns but not knowing enough, I came down on the 'be kind' side until I started reading a little bit more and more and came to the conclusion that there are absolutely certain circumstances where it is necessary to recognise sex matters. I just can't believe in 2020 it is hateful to say that.

2020wumben

I agree. That's how I started exploring it. I think that it's a good sign that someone in the public eye can even be open to hearing both sides. He'll probably get flack for not being 100% for all the demands of the TRAs and for still being unsure.

I've also heard him be concerned about women experiencing higher rates of sexual assault. I think that he is a good representation of those on the fence who share similar political view points to him. (Not many men on the left in the public eye say that they are unsure).

Hopefully he'll shut up about Brexit now.

"What is very interesting is he says that when he went shopping with his daughters he went into the changing rooms to see the clothes they tried on."

As a bloke who has patiently waited outside women's changing rooms, whilst my wife tries on clothes, I find that disturbing. As far as I am concerned, women's changing rooms are off limits to men.

@andyoldlabour

"What is very interesting is he says that when he went shopping with his daughters he went into the changing rooms to see the clothes they tried on."

As a bloke who has patiently waited outside women's changing rooms, whilst my wife tries on clothes, I find that disturbing. As far as I am concerned, women's changing rooms are off limits to men.

Especially in shops popular with teenage girls. But who cares if JOB made lots of other people's daughters uncomfortable, as long as he feels OK about it?

"What is very interesting is he says that when he went shopping with his daughters he went into the changing rooms to see the clothes they tried on."

Wow. That tells us everything we need to know about his thoughts on legal sex segregated provision for women and girls. No decent bloke with an ounce of common sense would think this was ok.

He has no skin in the game which he also admits.

But if he has daughters, a wife, a mother, then he does have skin in the game. This is why I keep up the fight. For my daughter.

I think he's doing a Philip Pullman. He's actually aware there's a conflict, and knows there is a negative impact on women, but is hiding behind "but it's all so diff-ic-ult"

So many men hide behind “it so so difficult”. It’s not really if we just acknowledge biological sex. It’s only difficult because the gender extremists want to make it difficult.

It's not difficult at all. It's really effing simple. Don't let men in women's spaces, even the ones who think they're women. (Especially the ones who think they're women.)

Somehow I expect all the men wailing “it’s all so difficult” know exactly what a women is when they want a shag

'It's not difficult at all. It's really effing simple'

So true - 'oh it's such a complex issue'. Nope. Biology is plain and simple and very easy to understand

@Biscuitsanddoombar

Somehow I expect all the men wailing “it’s all so difficult” know exactly what a women is when they want a shag

They all turn out to be total transphobes when it comes to answering the question "would you have sex with a 'woman' with a penis?" Or in the case of gay men like Owen Jones 'Would you have sex with a 'man' with a vagina?".

Funny that.

J O'B has a very dangerous of brand of 'kindness' which involves him and his ilk deciding what is 'kind' and then attacking, sneering, belittling, name calling dehumanising those who might have a differnt approach to 'kind', or truth or justice, or just a diffrent point of view.

In J O'B's head there is no such thing as legitimate other points of view, there are only bad people who don't agree with him.

And the fact that he doesn't see how dangerous that is makes him, and those who think this way and who push this ideological thinking, very blind and ignorant to the past.

And that's why the trans stuff is trcky for him:
The agreed 'kind' position is TWAW.
But it makes no sense when challanged...
Never mind, must be kind Sp: 'shut up biogoted unkind people telling the truth and speaking sense.'
It' a tricky position to hold.

In J O'B's head there is no such thing as legitimate other points of view, there are only bad people who don't agree with him.

Damian Barr tweeting a horrible transphobic comment was disregarded by TRAs because of who he is. Because he's on the right side, then what he did doesn't count. There are plenty of unpleasant precedents for where that kind of thinking leads.

@babyitsawildworld well said!

I love JOB certainly brilliant on the covid and teachers/police/fire fighter issues.

Trans not so sure. I think he would be more flexible in discussing it than people like Majiid, Ian Dale , Nick Ferrari etc and most other right wing presenters.

@coffeeandteav

I love JOB certainly brilliant on the covid and teachers/police/fire fighter issues.

Trans not so sure. I think he would be more flexible in discussing it than people like Majiid, Ian Dale , Nick Ferrari etc and most other right wing presenters.

Majiid has been fantastic on this issue in my opinion. I don't agree with him on everything else (I'm more on the JOB side with lockdown issues), but Majiid did a great call in getting people to reflect upon the lived experience of women as unique when the Jessica Krug controversy emerged. I like how Majiid seems to avoid group-think (he'll say what he believes even if it is unpopular, rather than sign up to a list of prescribed political views).