James O'Brien 'How not to be Wrong'

[notassigned]

Includes a chapter on trans. The very first page includes the assumption that women like us don't want trans-identifying people to have the same rights as every other human.

I certainly believe that trans people should have all the same rights that I do. I don't believe I have rights to enter sports, prisons, toilets etc designated for the opposite sex.

[Eowynthewarrior]

Surely the title of the work suggests an implicit sense of arrogant self righteousness ?

[NotTerfNorCis]

For a book on how not to be wrong, he's off to a bad start.

[Jackabobbo]

Can't stand him. Patronising sexist man.

[ZuttZeVootEeeVro]

I used to wonder why some people don't see that current tra means that women and girls don't get to have space (both physical and the right to organise) away from male people.

After talking to lots of tra and their supporters, I now realise that they don't believe that women have the right to our own space.

Maybe that's O'Brien position too?

[2020wumben]

He had Piers Morgan on his podcast and they discussed how he could understand how a woman wouldn't want a penis in a changing room/ toilet, that was perfectly understandable but then his friend Paris Lees said this would mean genital checks () on entry which he doesn't agree with. Tbf I don't think anyone would agree to that but he asked PM what he suggested would be a resolution and PM was like I don't know, I don't have an answer.

So the usual it's all brought back to changing rooms and toilets, nothing about safeguarding for both women and children. Would be good to see him engage with someone who knows the issues in a bit more detail.

[queenofknives]

What a fucking wanker

[UppityPuppity]

Interesting not really that he doesn’t want to talk about transgender issues women’s rights but then we don’t count then says he has to for three reasons:

Is it because:
a ) he’s a misogynist
b ) knows that allowing men to become women destroys women’s rights and women as a political, biological, economic and social class
c ) think men should be given a free pass to undress alongside girls?

All three?

Not a good look for someone who is always right.

My non woke, but still doesn’t quite get it DH was introduced to Titania McGrath’s book - a very refreshing reaction from him.

[UppityPuppity]

And what queenofknives said. Obvs.

[notassigned]

Yes 2020Wumben he goes into the thing with Paris Lees in the chapter.

The genital checks argument is ludicrous but the truth remains that one issue stopping resolution of this matter is that early transitioning TW who pass well say "would you make me go into the men's" and the general public - seeing someone who resembles an attractive young woman - automatically say "no, of course not".

For every picture of a Karen white we put forward, they show you some feminine looking 25 year old TW who lives quietly in their community. And this is an issue.

[ClaireP20]

@2020wumben

He had Piers Morgan on his podcast and they discussed how he could understand how a woman wouldn't want a penis in a changing room/ toilet, that was perfectly understandable but then his friend Paris Lees said this would mean genital checks () on entry which he doesn't agree with. Tbf I don't think anyone would agree to that but he asked PM what he suggested would be a resolution and PM was like I don't know, I don't have an answer.

So the usual it's all brought back to changing rooms and toilets, nothing about safeguarding for both women and children. Would be good to see him engage with someone who knows the issues in a bit more detail.

The thing is many women would not object to trans women entering the changing room, as such. I'm sure we all know or have encountered men dressed as women popping into the female loos etc. It isn't actually about that, it is about not adhering to the ongoing and increasing ridiculous demands of the trans lobby, who want to enshrine in law their rights to use the female toilets and enter female spaces. Would most women mind if an obvious trams woman used the female loos? No. Would most women mind that any man who states he is a woman has the rights to enter a woman's space and be treated as a woman, including hospital wards, prisons etc? Of course.

They just don't get it, because they are arrogant arseholes.

[ClaireP20]

@notassigned

Yes 2020Wumben he goes into the thing with Paris Lees in the chapter.

The genital checks argument is ludicrous but the truth remains that one issue stopping resolution of this matter is that early transitioning TW who pass well say "would you make me go into the men's" and the general public - seeing someone who resembles an attractive young woman - automatically say "no, of course not".

For every picture of a Karen white we put forward, they show you some feminine looking 25 year old TW who lives quietly in their community. And this is an issue.

I agree..

[Childrenofthestones]

He's something of a bully who made GC comments about Transwomen and fell foul of their lobby who attacked him. He shat himself and apologised, changing his tune very quickly.
He reminded me of somebody who found themselves on thin cracking ice in the middle of a lake and quickly made his way to the shore. He's not ventured out from the shore ever since

[OldCrone]

I feel very sorry for his wife but I guess she knew what she was getting herself into, his daughters however are stuck with him.

So he's heterosexual.

Someone needs to ask him : if he wasn't married, or if his wife left him, would he consider a relationship with a transwoman (with a penis, as most of them do)? If not, why not? Is he transphobic?

[ZuttZeVootEeeVro]

Would most women mind if an obvious trams woman used the female loos? No. Would most women mind that any man who states he is a woman has the rights to enter a woman's space and be treated as a woman, including hospital wards, prisons etc? Of course.

It doesn't matter if most women would be happy for an "obvious trans woman" (a person who is obviously male?) to use the female toilets. The facilities are for women and women only, and for all women including the ones who aren't happy to share with male people.

Those women who support male people using womens spaces need to realise that they are contributing to women being excluded from spaces designed for them.

[Lottapianos]

'Those women who support male people using womens spaces need to realise that they are contributing to women being excluded from spaces designed for them.'

So true. There are women who just simply will not be able to use public facilities if there is any chance at all of meeting a man in there

[NiceGerbil]

I got the first book and got the second today as a gift.

I enjoyed reading the first although I don't agree with him on everything. Hopefully I'll the enjoy the second as well.

I don't listen to the radio so don't really know who he is tbh. I bought the first on impulse in the bookshop due to the cover things eg David Mitchell saying yay.

I'm trying to get a range of views these days. It helps to try and understand other perspectives in order to keep thinking is there anything in here that might make me rethink, to understand why people think things, and to argue.

[NiceGerbil]

I've read the page copied.

It doesn't seem so bad?

Certainly the people fighting for, if they really believe that gender id trumps physical sex, do think they're fighting a righteous battle. The false stats etc all add to this.

That some women fear affording trans people (note, he means trans women here, bias on show) the same rights as women will damage women's equality is true.

And there are I'm sure plenty of religious/ traditional groups who dislike gender norms being broken, and people who verbally or physically attack GNC people.

Yes the description of the pro group is not nuanced.

I'm happy to read it though. In fact will do so now and report back

[notassigned]

NiceGerbil / TW already have the same rights as women.

[ZuttZeVootEeeVro]

What is strange about the "genital checks" argument is that it's assuming that we don't know a persons sex the vast majority of the time.

Women's spaces have been set up for years without the need for genital checks. Why are males threatening us with them now?

[ZuttZeVootEeeVro]

That some women fear affording trans people (note, he means trans women here, bias on show) the same rights as women will damage women's equality is true.

I'm not sure what rights you are talking about?

Both sex and gender reassignment are protected characteristics.

[megletthesecond]

The only group with a binary view of gender seems to be trans people.
I generally quite like JOB, but he's not thought about this properly.

[NiceGerbil]

My read on it is that he's referencing the right to be treated as female across the board.

Prisons sports hospitals etc etc

Which is of course where women do has he concerns.

[NiceGerbil]

I've just read the whole chapter.

Interesting. A lot to take issue with from a GC pov. But also. He says he just doesn't know. It confuses him. He talks to one person and thinks one thing, another person another.

He has no skin in the game which he also admits.

All in all he comes out on the be kind side. But he also says he feels that it's not right to have males in women's stuff on their say so. He quotes the JKR tweet that started it all off.

I think for a mainstream thing it's ok. I think he's not quite there yet. And the bits about right wing people leveraging the trans thing for their own ends is interesting.

Yeah I'm ok. This is a mainstream book remember. And while landing on one side, he acknowledges that its not cut and dried and he's really not sure.

[ClaireP20]

@ZuttZeVootEeeVro

Would most women mind if an obvious trams woman used the female loos? No. Would most women mind that any man who states he is a woman has the rights to enter a woman's space and be treated as a woman, including hospital wards, prisons etc? Of course.

It doesn't matter if most women would be happy for an "obvious trans woman" (a person who is obviously male?) to use the female toilets. The facilities are for women and women only, and for all women including the ones who aren't happy to share with male people.

Those women who support male people using womens spaces need to realise that they are contributing to women being excluded from spaces designed for them.

Noted x