Eddie Izzard...

[Mrsmorton]

Has announced new pronouns.

Again, apologies if this is being discussed already.

"They're not women's clothes, they're my clothes" seems to have been lost in the mists of time.

@RoyalCorgi

on the one hand there are columnists like Rod Liddle who I loathe,

The funny (or possibly sad) thing is that Liddle gets the whole gender debate - he is completely on the side of women. If arch-misogynist Liddle is more sympathetic to women's rights than the wokebros of the left, we really are in trouble.

Spot on. Sometimes when I look at Twitter I feel I've really dropped down a rabbithole. How can so many otherwise intelligent people have such a blind spot on this issue? I loathe Rod Liddle. It's physically painful to find myself agreeing with him,, Julia Hartley-Brewer, Piers Morgan etc. But I do.

@FlorisFigure

Last year I had a particularly gory and gruesome miscarriage and I developed sepsis so I was in hospital waiting for my infection to clear before the doctors could perform a D&C. However, during this time I was passing enormous blood clots and I took Eddies’s name in vain. I told the gynaecologist that the day Eddie had a spotlight up her vag with 3 people picking out blood clots and tissue with a set of forceps and that was nothing compared to proper childbirth, and then we have fibroids and the menopause to look forward to as reward, then and only then, when Eddie can match and beat this, would I concede that Eddie is a woman.

You see, this is IT. This is being a woman. Never mind all the is it secondary sex characteristics, is chromosomes, is it a hormonal wash??

No.

It's being an actual woman. And having an actual female experience. Something a male will never have.

💐

My extremely TWAW son, with numerous trans friends, was absolutely appalled at Eddie claiming both “girl mode” and being a “lesbian.”

I'm intrigued - can you say what was it about this example specifically which appalled your DS? Given, all those other, er, lesbians such as Alex Drummond and Caitlyn Jenner?

@QueenoftheAir

My extremely TWAW son, with numerous trans friends, was absolutely appalled at Eddie claiming both “girl mode” and being a “lesbian.”

I'm intrigued - can you say what was it about this example specifically which appalled your DS? Given, all those other, er, lesbians such as Alex Drummond and Caitlyn Jenner?

He’s 18 and he’s grown up on Eddie Izzard’s sketches - he knows many of them by heart. He loves Eddie. “Total clothing rights”

He’s unaware of Drummond and had no connection Jenner other than part of a tribe of American TV narcissists.

But Eddie, age 58, claiming Girl Mode and a Lesbian identity - cognitive dissonance, and nothing like DS’s confused and distressed teen peers.

Deleted.

Christ on a bike.

Wow! Can’t believe that was deleted.

There are some sensitive souls ...

Last year I had a particularly gory and gruesome miscarriage and I developed sepsis so I was in hospital waiting for my infection to clear before the doctors could perform a D&C. However, during this time I was passing enormous blood clots and I took Eddies’s name in vain. I told the gynaecologist that the day Eddie had a spotlight up her vag with 3 people picking out blood clots and tissue with a set of forceps and that was nothing compared to proper childbirth, and then we have fibroids and the menopause to look forward to as reward, then and only then, when Eddie can match and beat this, would I concede that Eddie is a woman.

Quite. In solidarity with you as have had much the same experience

It is the "sparks of hope" that did it. They don't like that sort of thing

See this is my issue with unisex toilets. I actually couldn't give a crap now about using a cubicle next to a man or adjusting my makeup in the mirror afterwards and I'm old enough and confident enough to get out of any potentially sticky situations should they arise. I have done swift knee to the testicles to a man pushing me into a cubicle from behind in a club before and stamped on a hand coming under the gap to try and steal my handbag.

But I vividly remember to this day when I miscarried my desperately wanted pregnancy in the female toilets at work. In total shock, blood dripping down my leg, stumbling out into the communal area trying to find paper towels and a lovely older lady (my age now) helping me, going to get me a cardigan to tie round my waste so I could get out of the building with some dignity and helping me into a taxi. Also crying in there after being bullied by a wanker boss and commiserating with other women how hard it was maintaining a front. Comforting random girls crying over breakups. Helping drunk girls in clubs get away from predatory men.l

Imagine all that with men with penises in there. Not the same is it. I'd have died a thousand deaths if any of the men from my floor had been in that toilet when I emerged, blood running down my legs and crying hysterically, included the transwoman. Doesn't bother me anymore but I worry for the vulnerable young girls that used to be me.

So sorry about your experience @pinbinpin. I agree that womens toilets are so much more than just a "place to pee".

My problem with unisex toilets is that they quickly become defacto male only spaces.

I went to university in France and when they opened the new literature building all the toilets were unisex. For the first few weeks we all used them, but the men would intentionally stand a bit too close when you were coming out, not moving over enough when you tried to get past so you had to squeeze past them. Nothing you could point a finger to but intentionally being intimidating arseholes.

Soon we were going over to the women's toilets in the philosophy block next door rather than face them. Then a second term in a girl got assaulted in the unisex toilets. The response was basically "why didn't she go to the philosophy block?"

Ah great @MoltenLasagne, so using the unisex loos becomes the new “asking for it”?! I hadn’t even thought of that horror, but I can see it would sadly be exactly what would happen.
@pinbinpin I’m sorry for your loss. I have experienced something similar, and I agree it’s another reason we need these spaces. The other examples you mentioned too. It is the case that work and public life is still designed to suit men. To succeed in it we have to reshape ourselves and our priorities to fit the male norm (most noticeably around having children). “The ladies” is a small space where we can get some respite from that BS. Of course some will say that TW need that respite too, and I agree they will also face problems fitting into the patriarchal “norms”, but they shouldn’t be given access to our respite space if that means it becomes impossible for us to enforce a boundary around who enters it, which would be the case if access was based on gender not sex.

Christ MoltenLasagne that’s a very good point. That’s horrendous. The new victim blaming. I can completely see that happening.

It is the case that work and public life is still designed to suit men. To succeed in it we have to reshape ourselves and our priorities to fit the male norm (most noticeably around having children).

This!

And I know I keep banging on about this, but the establishment of "Ladies" lavatories in public places & work places was a feminist campaign in the 19th century.

And it is within living memory (mine )that the "lack of suitable facilities" was used as a reason not to employ women in previously male-dominated industries & professions.

And @MoltenLasagne that is a scary story.

Fucking hell @MoltenLasagne everything really is women’s fault isn’t it.

Yes it was really shocking, although tbh I found a lot of French women to have quite victim blaming views whilst there (about 15 years ago now). I wonder whether post Me Too it is different but Catherine Deneuve's comments against it were very similar to what I'd experienced.

Thank you for the flowers and a big hug for every who has also had a MC. The point about the male domination of unisex toilets is very worrying.

The point about the male domination of unisex toilets is very worrying.

It’s totally foreseeable though. Men dominate any unisex space. I’m reading Invisible Women right now (in small chunks as I find it upsetting) and it shows just how males dominate everywhere that’s mixed.

I watched a program a few months ago - remarkable places to eat and there was a restaurant in Morocco (I think) where the kitchen was entirely staffed by women and the atmosphere was amazing. Men would have totally changed the dynamic.

Indeed - any group, class or gathering and the males will be the loudest voices. Any male...

Men dominate any unisex space. I’m reading Invisible Women right now (in small chunks as I find it upsetting) and it shows just how males dominate everywhere that’s mixed.

And conversely I recall reading some research somewhere which showed that men feel 'dominated' by women when there's more than one woman on a committee etc etc.

Dale Spender wrote a really interesting book in 1987, Reflecting Men at Twice their Natural Size (Tip to Virginia Woolf in the title).

One chapter is about an experiment she & a teacher friend ran, on looking at what happened if the teacher gave exactly 50% of her time to the girls in her secondary school class, and 50% to the boys. The girls and the boys and the teacher felt frustrated, the teacher because she felt she wasn't teaching the boys enough, the girls because they felt under the spotlight of so much attention, and the boys became hugely demanding because they weren't getting enough attention.

I read this book when it cam out, but I still vividly remember that account.

It's sort of like 'Fish don't realise they're swimming in water.' We naturalise so much sexism ...

Dale Spender wrote so much important stuff in the 80s. I feel that when she stopped, we lost momentum to some extent. Invisible Women feels like it builds on the ideas that Spender was developing then, but 30 or 40 years later.

My history professor introduced me/us to writers like spender back in the day (mid 80s). She’s be turning in her grave if she saw how students were well and truly blinded these days.