Thank you

[CAPTCHAchacha]

I’m a guy (i.e. snips and snails and puppy dogs tails, as opposed to a shifting constellation of whatever), and I’ve been around mumsnet long enough to know that’s usually the wrong way to start a post, but I figure it’s relevant. I found my way to FWR earlier this year, and credit it with helping me make the escape from the fiendishly addictive but ultimately unsatisfying AIBU.

While this board wasn’t my introduction to trans issues, it was the first place that showed me why it might be a good idea to start paying attention. I’d never had to consider how women are being affected. Between you, Magdalen Berns, and the thousand links I’ve probably followed by now, I consider myself reasonably well informed.

After the latest epic thread (the one where I’d wager a certain someone probably climaxed to have gotten those particular last words in), I just wanted to say thanks to all those who put so much work into their posts, particularly when you can never be certain your contributions won’t disappear should the thread take a wrong turn.

“The real world will always frustrate you if you refuse to see it for what it is,” said the cat in the hat, and I couldn’t agree more.

I do respect that, but you have to remember that I believe I am female, so I'm going to act accordingly - just like you are.

Well, that's not respecting it, is it?! That's just saying 'I'm going to go ahead and do what I wish regardless'. You describe how you went through male puberty. And 'believe' you are female. This does not give you the right to access female single sex spaces.

The positive here is that we are in agreement that women can be rapists.

Wrong again. She's was convicted of sexual assault. Rape Involves a penis. A woman Cannot have a penis. That was kind of the point.

A man can rape by deception.

This is one of the reasons I would be uncomfortable sending my teenage daughter naked into a room full of naked strangers, even if they were women.

What is this determination to dis female communal changing rooms. It's weird.

Last time it was embarrassment, now it's fear. Seriously it's nothing to do with you. Stop worrying about it.

The positive here is that we are in agreement that women can be rapists

Not in England and Wales, as (joint enterprise excepted), the crime requires a penis.

It's really weird that you would worry about girls using women's locker rooms.
Women generally don't go around fearing that we or our daughters will be sexually assaulted by female strangers in such places. Our experiences tells us that it's men we need to worry about.

I would say becaus Positrans has no experience being a young girl in a communal changing room, they have no idea what it is like. They went through male puberty so either used the boys or used the girls with most girls probably leaving so had the room all to themselves. This is why Positrans wouldn't send their hypothetical daughter into the womens changing rooms, they are just making things up.

@SophocIestheFox

The positive here is that we are in agreement that women can be rapists

Not in England and Wales, as (joint enterprise excepted), the crime requires a penis.

Not in Scotland.

Unusual internationally but there you go.

If someone is convicted of rape in Britain, it was done with a penis.

Sexual assault by penetration (fingers, objects) carries the same sentence as rape. But is legally distinct from rape.

@SophocIestheFox

The positive here is that we are in agreement that women can be rapists

Not in England and Wales, as (joint enterprise excepted), the crime requires a penis.

So you would say rape in marriage didn't exist until it actually became illegal.

And that, fundamentally, is what all of this is about. Women have babies, which is the original source of female oppression all across pretty much every society that’s ever been. We can fiddle about with words and clothing as much as we like, but for women, it always comes back to “who has the babies?”.

It never really crossed my mind before. But now I genuinely believe there is a lot of envy over women's bodies and their potential. Not just the desire to control it, either.

All this pretending that men are really infertile women, the breastfeeding stories, the online 'groups', etc.

Thanks for that study, I will look further at it. However, I note that it is studies prior to 2017. And of course, the US. I will of course be more interested in those discussing children and teens. Adults can do what they want as long as they are not claiming the rights for females. (And please note that while you might understand the superficial discrimination against females, you cannot understand the deep seated discrimination faced due to biology.)

I will point out however, in the UK because we are more concerned with the quality of care here, that since this time there has been no evidence of improvement of mental health for this group which is quite different I would suggest. In fact, even the results of the long study from GIDS doesn’t help you there.

And it is particularly important when you understand the demographic involved.

Since you don’t have that teenage daughter and are not in fact a teenaged girl, I would pose that many on us here will attest that the mental health aspect of this current cohort requires a complete rethink. particularly since many regular posters have direct experience with this current cohort on a daily basis.

So you would say rape in marriage didn't exist until it actually became illegal

Don’t be silly. I was part of the campaign to have it outlawed, you nana. It’s just bizarre to think a feminist would think that- have you forgotten who you’re haranguing today?

Wonder why Positrans keeps banging on about women being rapists or sexually assaulting other women. Regardless how you define rape, female sex offenders are very thin on the ground. Yes, they happen, no, not that often and chance is that the other women can fight off a female attacker. Why do they keep bringing this up, they did so on the other thread as well. Positrans, what are you trying to say?

@TheChampagneGalop

It's really weird that you would worry about girls using women's locker rooms. Women generally don't go around fearing that we or our daughters will be sexually assaulted by female strangers in such places. Our experiences tells us that it's men we need to worry about.

So would you allow your teenage son to go naked into a room of male strangers?

I mean it's up to you, but personally, I find the concept of communal changing rooms horrific, but then I am trans so I have grown up extremely self-conscious about my body.

@SophocIestheFox

So you would say rape in marriage didn't exist until it actually became illegal

Don’t be silly. I was part of the campaign to have it outlawed, you nana. It’s just bizarre to think a feminist would think that- have you forgotten who you’re haranguing today?

Right, so I think forced penetration with any object, penis or otherwise, should be counted as "rape". I hope the law changes at some point.

Regardless how you define rape

This is the definition of rape in law:

(1) A person (A) commits an offence if—
(a) he intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of another person (B) with his penis,
(b) B does not consent to the penetration, and
(c) A does not reasonably believe that B consents.

Women don't have penises.

Positrans, so if you know someone underwent egg extraction at 14 (they must have been very determined- I wonder how many can't bear the process at all), how old are they now?

And how old are you?

Right, so I think forced penetration with any object, penis or otherwise, should be counted as "rape". I hope the law changes at some point.

I still don't think you'd see the uptick in natal women committing your new offence. Because, you know, male pattern violence.

Gosh, first they were embarrassing, then they were full of predators, and now they're horrific?

Don't worry, positrans. Your fictional daughter is not going to be entering a mythical changing room, full of imaginary female predators.

You can stop being quite so preoccupied by it.

You want the law changed so that more women can be convicted of rape? That’s an, um, unusual priority, given the current state of rape convictions, I have to say, but knock yourself out. I’ll carry on trying to get the existing problems with trying rape cases sorted, and you carry on with whatever your chosen priority is...

Right, so I think forced penetration with any object, penis or otherwise, should be counted as "rape". I hope the law changes at some point.

The reason it doesn't is because rape carries the additional threat of pregnancy. Perhaps you have never thought of this?

It's also extremely useful to identify male pattern violence, by the words used to describe it.

Woman' is a loose, shifting constellation of biological, political and cultural phenomena which varies according to context, place and time.

Across time and cultures, "woman" has always been that which is attached to the female of the species.

The social construction of womanhood may be very different from one culture to another, but the biological underpinning of the category has always been, and will always be, female bodies, their reproductive capacity, and males' need to control this.

Yes teenage boys join in with the men. On average the two groups are of roughly equal risk to each other. Risk here included physical assault but also sexually unwanted behaviour and emotional distress.

Family changing for when the parents are concerned

And yes some private changing should also be provided for those who need that

@Datun

Right, so I think forced penetration with any object, penis or otherwise, should be counted as "rape". I hope the law changes at some point.

The reason it doesn't is because rape carries the additional threat of pregnancy. Perhaps you have never thought of this?

It's also extremely useful to identify male pattern violence, by the words used to describe it.

You mean it wouldn't count as rape if it happened to an old lady who clearly wasn't at risk of pregnancy?

Right, so I think forced penetration with any object, penis or otherwise, should be counted as "rape". I hope the law changes at some point.

Oooh, you should work for Stonewall, they love shit like this.

No, the law shouldn't change. Our statistics are already skewed because male crime is recorded as female. We don't need male sex offenders being hid in with female statistics, thanks.

I think it's quite obvious she didn't but I congratulate you on your ingenuity.

Although historically, judges have had reduced sentencing because the rapist thought about STI risk and used a condom.

You mean it wouldn't count as rape if it happened to an old lady who clearly wasn't at risk of pregnancy?

Oh do us a favour. Rape is a violent crime carried out by a man with a penis. It is a male pattern crime which is under-prosecuted and still carries a heavy social penalty for the victim. In the past if that victim became pregnant as a result of rape they would have had to carry the baby to term. There was an immense stigma attached to this and there still is in countries where access to contraception and abortion is limited or nonexistent - that is why rape is a war crime, since it is still used to inflict maximum devastation on communities in conflict. Your flippant response betrays your lack of concern for woman and your failure to understand the extent and the consequences of male violence.