Thank you

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I’m a guy (i.e. snips and snails and puppy dogs tails, as opposed to a shifting constellation of whatever), and I’ve been around mumsnet long enough to know that’s usually the wrong way to start a post, but I figure it’s relevant. I found my way to FWR earlier this year, and credit it with helping me make the escape from the fiendishly addictive but ultimately unsatisfying AIBU.

While this board wasn’t my introduction to trans issues, it was the first place that showed me why it might be a good idea to start paying attention. I’d never had to consider how women are being affected. Between you, Magdalen Berns, and the thousand links I’ve probably followed by now, I consider myself reasonably well informed.

After the latest epic thread (the one where I’d wager a certain someone probably climaxed to have gotten those particular last words in), I just wanted to say thanks to all those who put so much work into their posts, particularly when you can never be certain your contributions won’t disappear should the thread take a wrong turn.

“The real world will always frustrate you if you refuse to see it for what it is,” said the cat in the hat, and I couldn’t agree more.

You may prefer a GC definition of "sex", but then you have to decide which one - do you go with the gamete people? Or the gonad people? or the chromosome people, or even the socialisation people? The fact that you have so many options to choose from might give you some hint that Shon is onto something.

You do know that these are not separate 'options' right?

Gonads = a type of gamete which are determined by chromosomes.

and

"I want words to have clearly defined meanings"

Everyone does, and it would make life easier, but unfortunately, biology is complex and doesn't care about lexical preferences.

You are aware that this is how words work? They have clearly defined meanings?? Kind of the point of a dictionary? Biology and any science finds it particularly imperative to have clear defined meanings. It is only the trans ideologists that are trying to complicate and confuse meanings to their own ends (Shon's definition you referenced being a case in point).

Please don't be involved in that - surely you are better than that?

It doesn't happen in real life - trans women are generally fairly terrified about dating and many people think that a beating or even murder are actually justified if they find out their sexual partner is trans
It is men who do this beating and murdering of trans women. So why are you berating us for not wanting you in our prisons, hospitals etc

Well, I am at least glad that you don't fall into the "we can always tell" category. actually, I do think that women can tell. I have a vision impairment just enough that if I don’t have my glasses on, I can still reliably tell from a distance. I will admit it might be harder with a person who had their puberty blocked or had spent a great deal on feminizing their face etc. Maybe men can’t tell.

If you reveal a penis at the last moment when a vagina was clearly expected, then you are probably stupid. glad to have that cleared up.

However, a trans women who is passable and has a vagina, is under no obligation to reveal her medical history. But here we will disagree.

Having been through egg retrieval it is a very, very invasive, serious medical procedure, with a risk of potentially fatal side effects (ovarian hyperstimulation syndrome). I remember spending a weekend feeling like I'd been kicked in the guts by a Clydesdale and wondering how close to OHS I'd come (my hormone levels had gone spectacularly high, and I knew we were skirting very close to the wind - but I was pushing 40 and this was probably my last chance at becoming a mother - not a confused 14 year old who'd been fed a crock of shit).

If true (and I sincerly hope that degree of medical malpractice is not really taking place) I'd put that as another tick on the list of "reasons why blockers, cross sex hormones and an irreversible medical pathway for young teens without the mental maturity to give properly informed consent is a very bad idea indeed."

It seems you are willing to consider all potential negative outcomes except the trauma a trans child goes though at puberty without blockers.

It seems you are willing to downplay the other major health aspects of transitioning children and teens in light of this trauma. Considering studies have also shown that mental health is not actually improved by medicalised transition, not sure sure it is the right approach to continue to downplay the other health aspects the way your posts seem to.

Well, no one develops a womb or testicles at puberty. They develop secondary sexual characteristics.

No boy goes through female puberty and no girl goes through male puberty. Although I'm unsurprised that you want to think it.

A girl will never father a child nor produce sperm, and a boy will never gestate or menstruate. Ever.

Anecdotes about friends, again, are irrelevant.

The answer is no, positrans. High Court judges, three of them in fact, have been quite clear. No.

Followed very swiftly, by WPATH. Who appear to have abandoned their 'standards of care' assertion on this in favour of 'guidance'. It is my understanding that standards of care is a legal concept, which they are now keen to distance themselves from. Guidance, however, would appear to pass the legal buck to the individual doctors concerned.

It's amazing how the potential threat of litigation concentrates the mind.

It's also quite clear that the assertions about standards of care were not based on anything that could stand up in court.

One wonders what they were based on.

Endocrinologists are speaking up:

What are puberty blockers other than wish fulfillment by adults looking back and saying "if only my body stayed like it was at age 11, I would have passed better"?
But passing is one thing. A male cannot be made into a female or vice versa.

It's a good job that courts are the people who decide whether or not children are given life altering drugs, not adults who wished they looked different.

@CaraDuneRedux

Having been through egg retrieval it is a very, very invasive, serious medical procedure, with a risk of potentially fatal side effects (ovarian hyperstimulation syndrome). I remember spending a weekend feeling like I'd been kicked in the guts by a Clydesdale and wondering how close to OHS I'd come (my hormone levels had gone spectacularly high, and I knew we were skirting very close to the wind - but I was pushing 40 and this was probably my last chance at becoming a mother - not a confused 14 year old who'd been fed a crock of shit).

If true (and I sincerly hope that degree of medical malpractice is not really taking place) I'd put that as another tick on the list of "reasons why blockers, cross sex hormones and an irreversible medical pathway for young teens without the mental maturity to give properly informed consent is a very bad idea indeed."

So imagine just how intense gender dysphoria can be, that you would be willing to go through that in order to resolve it.

@Datun

Well, no one develops a womb or testicles at puberty. They develop secondary sexual characteristics.

No boy goes through female puberty and no girl goes through male puberty. Although I'm unsurprised that you want to think it.

A girl will never father a child nor produce sperm, and a boy will never gestate or menstruate. Ever.

Anecdotes about friends, again, are irrelevant.

The answer is no, positrans. High Court judges, three of them in fact, have been quite clear. No.

Followed very swiftly, by WPATH. Who appear to have abandoned their 'standards of care' assertion on this in favour of 'guidance'. It is my understanding that standards of care is a legal concept, which they are now keen to distance themselves from. Guidance, however, would appear to pass the legal buck to the individual doctors concerned.

It's amazing how the potential threat of litigation concentrates the mind.

It's also quite clear that the assertions about standards of care were not based on anything that could stand up in court.

One wonders what they were based on.

Endocrinologists are speaking up:

What are puberty blockers other than wish fulfillment by adults looking back and saying "if only my body stayed like it was at age 11, I would have passed better"?
But passing is one thing. A male cannot be made into a female or vice versa.

It's a good job that courts are the people who decide whether or not children are given life altering drugs, not adults who wished they looked different.

I think you'll find that the court case will be overturned. We'll have to wait and see.

In fact, some endocrinologists who do specialize in this field have spoken up and pointed out just how poor the evidence WPATH uses. And commented on how the endocrinologist society also was relying on this very poor evidence. Yes, their references have expanded, but, still poor quality.

Positrans That article doesn't say anything about women attacking girls in public locker rooms.
Do you really believe it's a risk for a girl to use the women's locker room?

I think you'll find that the court case will be overturned. We'll have to wait and see.

We will indeed. And probably know if it will be appealed very soon.

Although, if you are relying on a QC who specializes in tax to take this forward, I’d be looking elsewhere.

@Winesalot "Considering studies have also shown that mental health is not actually improved by medicalised transition"

From a meta-analysis of 51 peer-reviewed studies:

whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/%20what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people%20/

1. The scholarly literature makes clear that gender transition is effective in treating gender dysphoria and can significantly improve the well-being of transgender individuals.

2. Among the positive outcomes of gender transition and related medical treatments for transgender individuals are improved quality of life, greater relationship satisfaction, higher self-esteem and confidence, and reductions in anxiety, depression, suicidality, and substance use.

3. The positive impact of gender transition on transgender well-being has grown considerably in recent years, as both surgical techniques and social support have improved.

4. Regrets following gender transition are extremely rare and have become even rarer as both surgical techniques and social support have improved. Pooling data from numerous studies demonstrates a regret rate ranging from .3 percent to 3.8 percent. Regrets are most likely to result from a lack of social support after transition or poor surgical outcomes using older techniques.

I think it's juvenile wankery to derail a Thank You thread, but both the act and the content illustrate male privilege beautifully.

@Winesalot

I think you'll find that the court case will be overturned. We'll have to wait and see.

We will indeed. And probably know if it will be appealed very soon.

Although, if you are relying on a QC who specializes in tax to take this forward, I’d be looking elsewhere.

I'm waiting with interest too.

But pretty confident that the High Court judgement will be upheld - because "first do no harm" plus "can this person really understand enough to consent to all the after effects of this proposed treatment?" are pretty fundamental principles on which to base a judgement.

@Winesalot

I think you'll find that the court case will be overturned. We'll have to wait and see.

We will indeed. And probably know if it will be appealed very soon.

Although, if you are relying on a QC who specializes in tax to take this forward, I’d be looking elsewhere.

Well, previous case was taken by a right-wing fundamentalist anti-abortionist lawyer, so who knows.

*I did answer that - I borrowed Shon Faye's definition which I felt was about the most accurate one I've heard:

"'Woman' is a loose, shifting constellation of biological, political and cultural phenomena which varies according to context, place and time. While it's possible to notice strong correlations among these; it is impossible to mandate exclusive criteria."*

Okay, you like that definition. The trouble is that most of it is completely meaningless, and the parts that aren't are wrong.

Woman is a very simple biological category. It's not loose or shifting. It doesn't vary according to time. We've been reproducing sexually for as long as humans have existed.

That's all. It's not complicated. It's not uncertain, it's not shifting or questioned or arguable.

You may prefer a GC definition of "sex", but then you have to decide which one - do you go with the gamete people? Or the gonad people? or the chromosome people, or even the socialisation people? The fact that you have so many options to choose from might give you some hint that Shon is onto something.

I agree that female gametes, gonads and chromosomes are all female in females, yes. What is it you're trying to say here, Positrans - you do realise that the fact of various characteristics all being features of female doesn't somehow put them in competition with each other? We're not a pick-and-mix of biological features that can be jumbled up like different outfits - we are just female, that's all.

Differences in sexual development or intersex are not anything to do with the 'trans' question, and I believe people with DSDs have specifically asked many times not to be 'lumped in' with people who feel they are transgender.

I do feel for you, I imagine it must be very hard to live with all of this confusion. Reality is sometimes hard to accept, although generally I have found it brings the most peace in the end, even when that is not what we thought we were looking for. I wish you well and hope you have a good festive season.

@MaudTheInvincible

I think it's juvenile wankery to derail a Thank You thread, but both the act and the content illustrate male privilege beautifully.

It's a thread on which several people listed questions that they wished I had answered. I have now answered them. It seemed sensible to answer the question on the thread in which the questions were placed.

@ArabellaScott
"I do feel for you, I imagine it must be very hard to live with all of this confusion. Reality is sometimes hard to accept, although generally I have found it brings the most peace in the end, even when that is not what we thought we were looking for. I wish you well and hope you have a good festive season."

Thank you. And I wish the same for you.

Just to clarify, there was never any confusion about my gender identity - it hasn't fluctuated at all since I first recognised it at the age or 3 or 4.

The reality of being trans is indeed hard to accept, but I did, and as you say, it finally brought me peace of mind.

Well, previous case was taken by a right-wing fundamentalist anti-abortionist lawyer, so who knows.

Mmmm....

Abortion is a bodily health issue. So, I figure that is a good fit. Same areas of law covered. Tax law.... not so much. Particularly since they have repeatedly already displayed some significantly poorly thought out ideas so far.

Also, I don’t know. I was always under the impression barristers took on cases that went against their personal point of view if they felt there was a problem with the law in that case (or because they were professional and personal views were put aside). One of them...

Well, I'm very glad you have found something that works. Just so long as you respect that women's peace of mind sometimes requires single sex spaces, and don't impinge on that right, we are all able to coexist perfectly happily.

For the avoidance of doubt, rape by deception is a crime. A woman was sentenced for 8 years for allowing her partner to think she was a man.

In November 2015, British Judge Roger Dutton sentenced a 25-year-old woman, Gayle Newland, to eight years in prison for pretending to be a man as a means of having sex with an unnamed woman of the same age. Newland had made her female victim believe that she was a man by means of deception

She was re-tried on appeal, found guilty again and is now on the sex offenders register.

Not just 'stupid'.

@ArabellaScott

Well, I'm very glad you have found something that works. Just so long as you respect that women's peace of mind sometimes requires single sex spaces, and don't impinge on that right, we are all able to coexist perfectly happily.

I do respect that, but you have to remember that I believe I am female, so I'm going to act accordingly - just like you are.

@Datun

For the avoidance of doubt, rape by deception is a crime. A woman was sentenced for 8 years for allowing her partner to think she was a man.

In November 2015, British Judge Roger Dutton sentenced a 25-year-old woman, Gayle Newland, to eight years in prison for pretending to be a man as a means of having sex with an unnamed woman of the same age. Newland had made her female victim believe that she was a man by means of deception

She was re-tried on appeal, found guilty again and is now on the sex offenders register.

Not just 'stupid'.

The positive here is that we are in agreement that women can be rapists. This is one of the reasons I would be uncomfortable sending my teenage daughter naked into a room full of naked strangers, even if they were women.

I think you'll find that the court case will be overturned. We'll have to wait and see.

Of course it won't 🤣

All the wishing and hoping and flailing and railing, doesn't produce any evidence. There is no evidence other than the thousands of pages that the court read.

I think you're confused. The judgement was not an opinion about the treatment used, only that minors can't consent to it.

It's not surprising to me, though, that you think children can consent to no adult sex life, being sterile, and a lifelong medical patient. When you identify as something that you can only define as a shifting constellation, then I'm afraid your credibility has taken a bit of a knocking.

Egg extraction from a 14 year old to enable later “fatherhood”? Not going to type directly what I think of that concept, however, I assume that all this difficulty over which sex people are will be easily cleared up when it comes time to find a surrogate for that pregnancy.

And that, fundamentally, is what all of this is about. Women have babies, which is the original source of female oppression all across pretty much every society that’s ever been. We can fiddle about with words and clothing as much as we like, but for women, it always comes back to “who has the babies?”.

And there we have it. Another woman will have to have the babies if we are insistent on sterilising children for their inability to adhere to sexual role stereotypes. Do it to Julia.