Thank you

[CAPTCHAchacha]

I’m a guy (i.e. snips and snails and puppy dogs tails, as opposed to a shifting constellation of whatever), and I’ve been around mumsnet long enough to know that’s usually the wrong way to start a post, but I figure it’s relevant. I found my way to FWR earlier this year, and credit it with helping me make the escape from the fiendishly addictive but ultimately unsatisfying AIBU.

While this board wasn’t my introduction to trans issues, it was the first place that showed me why it might be a good idea to start paying attention. I’d never had to consider how women are being affected. Between you, Magdalen Berns, and the thousand links I’ve probably followed by now, I consider myself reasonably well informed.

After the latest epic thread (the one where I’d wager a certain someone probably climaxed to have gotten those particular last words in), I just wanted to say thanks to all those who put so much work into their posts, particularly when you can never be certain your contributions won’t disappear should the thread take a wrong turn.

“The real world will always frustrate you if you refuse to see it for what it is,” said the cat in the hat, and I couldn’t agree more.

I’m not debating with them. I’m posting for the lurkers

I take the extra few moments to make sure my posts are less likely to be deleted and while, I am sure they seem pedantically worded (and lengthy), I do try to go back and put as much as I can in (usually on my phone so they will lack the links to studies and articles I would normally add). I know many of us do this. I figure by the end of a thread there is more change some of our posts will survive.

Because I have come across so many Swiss cheese threads after the external monitoring team has been through it. And so many excellent articulate posts are removed leaving the focus otherwise on the poster who is debating the merits of their ideology. It ends up looking like the women here are hateful (no, often because it contravened some other talk guideline or referenced a deleted post.) because of all the deletions.

Yes, a round of applause for the endless patience and eloquence and insight of the women on this board. It really is appreciated.

And always the questions that are ignored because an honest answer might come across as capitulation.

It's this that I find most annoying, but is probably most telling.

Look for the questions that never get answered. They aren't difficult ones, at least, most if us can answer them in very simple terms. They are fundamental to the whole issue.

What is a woman?
Should woman be entitled to single sex spaces?
Should women be allowed to say no to a male?

• For example.

Lots of these threads are a form of gish galloping, lots of pat statements that don't bear scrutiny and a convenient selective deafness when it comes to the questions TRAs would rather not answer.

@SophoclestheFox Rope collectors all.

The backstory to that link:
Thinking it best to add one to avoid the suggestion that I think trans people should hang themselves (this is the internet after all), I went looking for something a little more interesting than a dictionary entry, and found that. Not ideal, as the reference is buried in the comments, but the page seemed worth linking to anyway.

Then I did a search to see Rosie’s take on trans issues. You can judge for yourself by her choice of guest blogger:

girlempowered.wordpress.com/2013/11/19/fear/
girlempowered.wordpress.com/2013/11/20/why-i-am-out/

Reading those before coming out as GC, I wouldn’t have had the slightest problem with them, but now, well… Let’s just say I would be interested in the thoughts of FWR.

@PotholeParadies Thanks to your mention of the Staniland Question, I’ve had to put in the list of things to watch.

@HecatesCatsInXmasHats My male conditioning may have taken a wrong turn somewhere.

My wife is in STEM, I’m the creative and frankly more emotional one. Logic isn’t my strong suit: but I know it when I see it. I never see it in trans arguments. Otherwise, being very much a live and let live sort of person, with an ear tuned to hopeful longing, I might be expected to have more sympathy with their point of view.

Though I’ve never read JK Rowling’s books (and thus only get the references by context and repetition), the furore over her remarks also helped push me firmly into gender critical territory. Once you’ve educated yourself on the subject, which in this case includes actually reading what she wrote to supplement your preferred pundit’s interpretation of it, and take note of her generosity both of spirit and wallet, it takes a special kind of blindness to overlook her appalling treatment. The incessant critical framing by most of the media also becomes hard to ignore.

As for this business of lurking, it always sounds unsavoury, doesn’t it. I’d post more often, but I doubt I have much to offer a feminism board. There’s little opportunity for me to discuss this with people out in the world. I’ll continue to write about it on my blog [details on application], collect well wrought sentences here, and cheer every victory for sanity.

Lots of these threads are a form of gish galloping, lots of pat statements that don't bear scrutiny and a convenient selective deafness when it comes to the questions TRAs would rather not answer.

YY. Many TRAs are masters of the Gish Gallop.

I did comment on that thread but I ended up hiding it because I did find that person's comments very upsetting actually.

I find it very hurtful and draining that a person can use another person's genuine pain and trauma for their own end without actually engaging.

Infertility, puberty and menopause, sex discrimination, race discrimination, sexual intimidation, harrasment and abuse, and just the dismissal of women of all ages but particularly young and older feel like death by a thousand cuts and to have that used for some sneering talking point and then the inevitable DARVO is sometimes just too much.

I have to say, I would like to thank Positrans for engaging politely on that thread and putting forward their answers to certain questions (e.g. what is a woman, what are the traits shared by all women and transwomen that are not shared by any men or transmen). Clearly, from a GC perspective the answers were unsatisfactory, but at least Positrans set out their beliefs in way that could be reviewed and discussed.

I was accused (for want of a better word) of wanting 'soundbites'. No. I want words to have clearly defined meanings so that they make sense. If anyone wants to have the rights of 'women' enshrined in law, we really do need a legally enforceable definition of the word. Redefining 'woman' as a constellation of whateverness only undermines the rights of women (as the word is currently and commonly understood).

I think the thread made that very clear.

I find it very hurtful and draining that a person can use another person's genuine pain and trauma for their own end without actually engaging.

Infertility, puberty and menopause, sex discrimination, race discrimination, sexual intimidation, harrasment and abuse, and just the dismissal of women of all ages but particularly young and older feel like death by a thousand cuts and to have that used for some sneering talking point and then the inevitable DARVO is sometimes just too much.

Yes

I did comment on that thread but I ended up hiding it because I did find that person's comments very upsetting actually.

Sorry, JohnMcClane, we cross posted. Perhaps 'politely' was the wrong word to use on my part to describe the poster on that thread. I see how some of the posts could be very hurtful.

Clearly, from a GC perspective the answers were unsatisfactory

I would take issue with the idea that Positrans actually engaged. I won't say what I think as I'm pretty sure it's verboten.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Clearly, from a GC perspective the answers were unsatisfactory

I would take issue with the idea that Positrans actually engaged. I won't say what I think as I'm pretty sure it's verboten.

Well, answers (of a sort) were provided.

In fairness, my bar is pretty low

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Clearly, from a GC perspective the answers were unsatisfactory

I would take issue with the idea that Positrans actually engaged. I won't say what I think as I'm pretty sure it's verboten.

Indeed. Claiming that men, most of whom are quite capable of fatherhood, are actually infertile women because they don't have a womb, appears to be a common trope. Feigning sympathy for infertile women and making sure everyone knows you're including those men is also very common. It's designed to hurt women and show dominance.

JohnMcClane, please know that almost everyone sees through it and it only increases support for women.

Certain men can't help showing their hand. It's a bit of a mistake when 12m-14m people are potentially watching you do it.

I think with any of these regular male posters who identify as women, they are not here to have a conversation. They are here on an education project or their aim is to shame women for being pro-women.

I gave up quickly in believing they were here to have a conversation because their tone was set right from the start. I don’t think from the few that have currently posted (a couple have lapsed, and I am now suspicious about new posters bc nc), that they have ever posted a ‘yeah... that’s a point I didn’t consider.’

Even one of the most vocal has a habit of turning and attacking when they realize they have been completely caught out. So yes, although our newest falsely tried many times to make out being monstered, they remained polite at least. Having people disagree with you is not monstering, having people point out how offensive your posts might be is not monstering. Considering what was posted on a feminism board on a parenting site, and the clear mental health aspect of it all, the countering posts were circumspect.

Infertility, puberty and menopause, sex discrimination, race discrimination, sexual intimidation, harrasment and abuse, and just the dismissal of women of all ages but particularly young and older feel like death by a thousand cuts and to have that used for some sneering talking point and then the inevitable DARVO is sometimes just too much.

I absolutely agree with this.

Changed to an old name I don't use anymore. I was lurking in that thread too. Fascinating to read. I wanted an answer about whether MTF respect that a (natal) woman's experience of the world is different to theirs, but as far as I saw, the answer never came.

Claiming that men, most of whom are quite capable of fatherhood, are actually infertile women because they don't have a womb, appears to be a common trope.

I'm not infertile, but that was the point that's pissed me off the most these past few days.

Sure, there might be some occasions when it's relevant to separate humans into 'fertile women' and 'everyone else' - but this call to class infertile women as fundamentally different (and not fully female) is something no woman wants, regardless of her own fertility.

It pisses me off on behalf of other women, but it also pisses me off as a woman whose reproductive system works. I don't want to be considered a proper female just because I've bred; it doesn't make me special!

I wanted an answer about whether MTF respect that a (natal) woman's experience of the world is different to theirs, but as far as I saw, the answer never came.

They can't ever concede that, or the whole shaky house of cards falls down.

@nauticant the content of your zoom chat mentioned upthread was chilling. I went and dug around - I’m hoping you can confirm that although there was resistance it is in fact legal for rape victims to request a female examiner?

Apologies for derailing the thread and I quite agree with you op. I’m a relative newcomer and have been very grateful for the informative discussions on this board.

Helen Stanisland is incredible. The TRAs hate her on twitter for repeatedly requesting clarification on it.

Those blogs, OP. Oof. Very sneery at the silly women being worried, aren't they? Our reasons for caution is all in our heads, according to them.
"Was risk assessment useless to women?"

What a weird thing to say. It sets the author's former way of navigating society as true risk assessment, and what women do as something other. Irrational anxiety, perhaps?

Women certainly risk assess just as much as former Eagle Scout person. But we calculate our risk of violence based on our own starting conditions, not men's. I don't think the author gets that our decisions might be rational.

[quote YouSetTheTone]@nauticant the content of your zoom chat mentioned upthread was chilling. I went and dug around - I’m hoping you can confirm that although there was resistance it is in fact legal for rape victims to request a female examiner?

Apologies for derailing the thread and I quite agree with you op. I’m a relative newcomer and have been very grateful for the informative discussions on this board.[/quote]
This was in Scotland. The amendment does mean that women can request a female examiner.

I am not a lawyer and am slightly unclear on whether a male who has a grc is classed as 'female'- the precise wording of the Equality Act seems to be what is in question and I thought it was a bit ambiguous. It says single sex exemptions can be implemented where there is a legitimate need, and I believe cited exactly this situation as an example. However some claim that a grc changes ones legal sex.

Another problem is lack of suitably qualified females in this role in Scotland, although steps are apparently being taken to address this.

@PotholeParadies Thanks for your reply. I also passed that link (girlempowered.wordpress.com/2013/11/19/fear/) along to my wife, who was perplexed that the author could feel so magically transformed as to erase the reality of his physical strength. She also wondered at the mechanism whereby his salary automatically went down.

[quote CAPTCHAchacha]@PotholeParadies Thanks for your reply. I also passed that link (girlempowered.wordpress.com/2013/11/19/fear/) along to my wife, who was perplexed that the author could feel so magically transformed as to erase the reality of his physical strength. She also wondered at the mechanism whereby his salary automatically went down.[/quote]
Yes, that struck me too.
What job is Fran in that docks pay that way?

As for the parking -
“You’re not afraid because you could thump him right back,” ran through my head.

I lurk a lot too and post occasionally and i have learned so much from the regular posters on this board. I am hugely appreciative, and while i cannot remember particular names one that really stands out for me is Datun, who has very kindly answered my questions in the past and is always clear, fair and dignified, even with vile posters who really don't deserve it.

[quote CAPTCHAchacha]@PotholeParadies Thanks for your reply. I also passed that link (girlempowered.wordpress.com/2013/11/19/fear/) along to my wife, who was perplexed that the author could feel so magically transformed as to erase the reality of his physical strength. She also wondered at the mechanism whereby his salary automatically went down.[/quote]
It's always girlhood for these older mtf transitioners isn't it.

Magical thinking. Especially the automatic downgrading of salary.

@Deadringer

I lurk a lot too and post occasionally and i have learned so much from the regular posters on this board. I am hugely appreciative, and while i cannot remember particular names one that really stands out for me is Datun, who has very kindly answered my questions in the past and is always clear, fair and dignified, even with vile posters who really don't deserve it.

Hear hear

Why do you want the questions answered when you already know that you will not be satisfied with the answers?