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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Thank you

195 replies

CAPTCHAchacha · 19/12/2020 20:39

I’m a guy (i.e. snips and snails and puppy dogs tails, as opposed to a shifting constellation of whatever), and I’ve been around mumsnet long enough to know that’s usually the wrong way to start a post, but I figure it’s relevant. I found my way to FWR earlier this year, and credit it with helping me make the escape from the fiendishly addictive but ultimately unsatisfying AIBU.

While this board wasn’t my introduction to trans issues, it was the first place that showed me why it might be a good idea to start paying attention. I’d never had to consider how women are being affected. Between you, Magdalen Berns, and the thousand links I’ve probably followed by now, I consider myself reasonably well informed.

After the latest epic thread (the one where I’d wager a certain someone probably climaxed to have gotten those particular last words in), I just wanted to say thanks to all those who put so much work into their posts, particularly when you can never be certain your contributions won’t disappear should the thread take a wrong turn.

“The real world will always frustrate you if you refuse to see it for what it is,” said the cat in the hat, and I couldn’t agree more.

OP posts:
terryleather · 21/12/2020 12:47

@Deadringer

I lurk a lot too and post occasionally and i have learned so much from the regular posters on this board. I am hugely appreciative, and while i cannot remember particular names one that really stands out for me is Datun, who has very kindly answered my questions in the past and is always clear, fair and dignified, even with vile posters who really don't deserve it.
As has been pointed out before, Datun is like Galadriel - she appears on a thread like the calm voice of reason and you know everything will be alright Grin

When I was first lurking on FWR, she was one of the posters who really set it out for me along with Donkeyskin, Barracker and so many others - and of course there's Langcleg who, despite being responsible for that fucking breakfast abomination, is still so sorely missed.
Thanks to you all and everyone else who makes FWR what it is.

CAPTCHAchacha · 21/12/2020 13:26

@Positrans

Why do you want the questions answered when you already know that you will not be satisfied with the answers?
How can you know answers will satisfy until you hear them?
OP posts:
Gurufloof · 21/12/2020 14:05

Why do you want the questions answered when you already know that you will not be satisfied with the answers
Maybe if they were answered without a shifting constellation of meaning for words we would be ok with the answers? Try it.

Winesalot · 21/12/2020 14:12

Or with a solid grounding of scientific proof?

I think even WPATH have updated this weekend their 'standards' are now only 'guidance'. As more and more clinicians and scientists have pointed out just how flimsy the evidence that they continue to push actually is. IT DOESN'T stand up to robust analysis.

Datun · 21/12/2020 14:52

Positrans

Why do you want the questions answered when you already know that you will not be satisfied with the answers?

Personally, it's because your answers are informative.

Many people don't understand the issue and you do a very effective job of enlightenment.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 21/12/2020 15:01

I want the questions answered because I want to understand the non GC position. I want to know the information, the logic underpinning it so I can check my own understanding for depth and breadth.

But I am invariably offered 'because that's what I believe" and that isn't good enough.

StellaAndCrow · 21/12/2020 15:07

I just wanted to echo others who say what a fantastic thread that is
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a4104554-Can-someone-please-explain-trans
So many excellent explanations and links. I started off saving individual quotes, but ended up saving the whole thread (I hope - has anyone else archived it)?

StellaAndCrow · 21/12/2020 15:15

And as so often, a person with no argument tries to say that explaining gender identity (now, morphed into sex identity) is like trying to explain the colour red to a blind person.
Well, you could at least have a go with a basic scientific definition, which is all I'm wanting with "gender identity"
e.g. "The visible light spectrum is the segment of the electromagnetic spectrum that the human eye can view. Different wavelengths of light appear to our eyes as different colors. Typically, the human eye can detect wavelengths from 380 to 700 nanometers. Violet has the shortest wavelength, at around 380 nanometers, and red has the longest wavelength, at around 700 nanometers.. . ." and then answer any follow on questions.
That's what I'd like regarding "sex identity" - a description of what it is, even if I can't experience it myself.

BagnoldSummer · 21/12/2020 15:27

Another lurker here saying thanks very much. I’ve learnt a lot and have contributed to a number of the crowdfunders you have raised awareness of. Good luck to all for 2021.

JustSpeculation · 21/12/2020 17:48

@StellaAndCrow

And as so often, a person with no argument tries to say that explaining gender identity (now, morphed into sex identity) is like trying to explain the colour red to a blind person. Well, you could at least have a go with a basic scientific definition, which is all I'm wanting with "gender identity" e.g. "The visible light spectrum is the segment of the electromagnetic spectrum that the human eye can view. Different wavelengths of light appear to our eyes as different colors. Typically, the human eye can detect wavelengths from 380 to 700 nanometers. Violet has the shortest wavelength, at around 380 nanometers, and red has the longest wavelength, at around 700 nanometers.. . ." and then answer any follow on questions. That's what I'd like regarding "sex identity" - a description of what it is, even if I can't experience it myself.
You don't have to go even that far. The extraordinary Turkish painter Esref Armagan has been blind since birth (since before birth, in fact. His eyes never developed) yet has an excellent understanding of colour and uses it well in his paintings. I have one on my wall. I don't think he's so hot on physics. So I guess that colour is "psychologically real" in some sense.
paniquer · 21/12/2020 22:46

JustSpeculation

That Bill Clinton portrait is very recognisable. I love the path leading up to the sky.

ArabellaScott · 21/12/2020 23:02

I am genuinely keen to hear arguments from the non-gc side that make sense.

Been asking/looking/reading for a while.

Still don't see a justification of why women should cede single sex spaces and their sex based rights to males.

Will happily keep looking, though, I want the truth of the matter, not just reinforcement of what I already perceive/understand. And if something should come to light that genuinely made sense, I would change my mind.

LurkyMcLurkLurk · 22/12/2020 00:24

Another here who, until this year, had no clue that the definition of woman apparently has little to do with biology and everything to do with feelings. Started with reading JKR's piece and my peaking escalated quickly from there. I've been lurking here and on twitter, and have learned so much. I'm very grateful for those who have been working to enlighten the oblivious like me.

JustSpeculation · 22/12/2020 07:57

@paniquer

JustSpeculation

That Bill Clinton portrait is very recognisable. I love the path leading up to the sky.

There are a couple of youtube videos about him. Very thought provoking about the nature of the brain and the mind. I met him about 20 years ago and saw him draw.
Positrans · 22/12/2020 10:04

@OldLang
"a man has had his say and we must agree"

I'm not a man, but why do you feel you can't disagree? I mean everyone else has, and I certainly haven't insisted that anyone agree with me. Honestly - disagree all you like - there's nothing I could do about it even if I wanted to.

@aliasundercover
"You transitioned as an adult, and you've mentioned having a daughter. I assume therefore that you have used your female penis to have sex and father your child."

I don't have a daughter - I was talking hypothetically when I said I would be wary of sending my female daughter naked into a room of naked strangers, even if they were all female. Same for any young relative of any sex in any room of naked strangers.

"Why then are you so keen to deny 'transgender' children the ability to enjoy having sexual relationships as adults and to have their own children?"

I'm not, I'm keen for trans children to alleviate their dysphoria and to also live as normal a life as possible. Having lived through a testosterone puberty as a trans girl, and knowing many trans kids and adults, I know, through very bitter experience that nearly cost me my life, which is the preferable path. And I'm sure you wouldn't want a trans girl to end up suffering the same distress as a detransitioner would you?

"Early transition where a child never goes through puberty will leave them infertile and with impaired sexual function. What is your motivation for campaigning for more children to be treated with these drugs with such an appalling outcome?"

They do go through puberty - that's what happens when they stop blockers - they either go through a testosterone puberty or an estrogen puberty. Fertility is an issue, but there are options to store gametes. This is possible because blockers are not given until puberty has actually started.

@ArabellaScott
"What is a woman?"

I did answer that - I borrowed Shon Faye's definition which I felt was about the most accurate one I've heard:

"'Woman' is a loose, shifting constellation of biological, political and cultural phenomena which varies according to context, place and time. While it's possible to notice strong correlations among these; it is impossible to mandate exclusive criteria."

And of course "man" is also a loose, shifting constellation of biological, political and cultural phenomena which varies according to context, place and time...

You may prefer a GC definition of "sex", but then you have to decide which one - do you go with the gamete people? Or the gonad people? or the chromosome people, or even the socialisation people? The fact that you have so many options to choose from might give you some hint that Shon is onto something.

"Should woman be entitled to single sex spaces?"

That depends on how you define any single sex. I would have to think about exactly which types of people I am uncomfortable sharing the women's facilities with me.

"Should women be allowed to say no to a male?"

You can say "no" to whomever you want. The validity of that "no" will depend on why you're saying it. If it's "no" to a black man who wants to come into a bar with his white friends then you should be ignored. If it's no to a trans man entering the women's toilets, that might be valid if they look passably male.

@EdgeOfACoin
"I want words to have clearly defined meanings"

Everyone does, and it would make life easier, but unfortunately, biology is complex and doesn't care about lexical preferences.

@Winesalot
"Having people disagree with you is not monstering, having people point out how offensive your posts might be is not monstering."

I agree. Suggesting I'm a rape apologist who wants children to die to prove my point however, is monstering.

@AlpacasPackOwls
"I wanted an answer about whether MTF respect that a (natal) woman's experience of the world is different to theirs, but as far as I saw, the answer never came."

The term "MTF" is somewhat out of date, and the term "natal" something of a misnomer, but in answer to your substantive point, experiences aren't monoliths. As a trans woman I share a range of experiences with some women, and not with some other women. For example, because I pass, I experience everyday sexism like almost every other woman in the world, whilst not sharing street transphobia with lots of other trans people, but I can't have periods, which is something I share with a relatively small number of women. In Japan I have the privilege of being treated like a local, and I don't experience the racism that black women might experience in the same place. So, there is no single unifying experience of being a woman.

@TyroTerf
"It pisses me off on behalf of other women, but it also pisses me off as a woman whose reproductive system works. I don't want to be considered a proper female just because I've bred; it doesn't make me special!"

I completely agree with you. The very basis of pretty much my whole position is that no one should be defined by their reproductive organs or what they can or can't do with them.

@StellaAndCrow
"That's what I'd like regarding "sex identity" - a description of what it is, even if I can't experience it myself."

No problem. Here's a page on gender identity development in children. Don't worry - it's not from a trans site, it's from the American Academy of Pediatrics - a professional body of 67,000 pediatricians:

www.healthychildren.org/English/ages-stages/gradeschool/Pages/Gender-Identity-and-Gender-Confusion-In-Children.aspx

Quote: "gender identity" refers to an internal sense people have of who they are that comes from an interaction of biological traits, developmental influences, and environmental conditions. This may be male, female, somewhere in between, a combination of both or neither. "

TheChampagneGalop · 22/12/2020 10:13

Positrans Why would your hypothetical daughter be in danger surrounded by naked female people in the women's locker room?

Positrans · 22/12/2020 10:23

@TheChampagneGalop

Positrans Why would your hypothetical daughter be in danger surrounded by naked female people in the women's locker room?
www.scientificamerican.com/article/sexual-victimization-by-women-is-more-common-than-previously-known/
Datun · 22/12/2020 10:24

I cant get through all that tbh.

Anyone who thinks males are females and females are shifting constellations, and not only wants laws and protocols based on that, but thinks it deserves respect, isn't writing anything I'm interested in.

I stopped at They do go through puberty - that's what happens when they stop blockers - they either go through a testosterone puberty or an estrogen puberty. Fertility is an issue, but there are options to store gametes. This is possible because blockers are not given until puberty has actually started

They don't go through puberty. A girl doesn't develop testicles. And a boy doesn't develop a womb to begin menstruation.

I would be interested in the stats of children storing eggs/sperm. Jazz Jennings had never had an erection or an orgasm.

And you certainly don't understand the implications of egg extraction from little girls. Of course.

Good job our high court vehemently disagrees with you. Followed swiftly by WPATH.

Winesalot · 22/12/2020 10:35

Suggesting I'm a rape apologist who wants children to die to prove my point however, is monstering.

Out of curiosity, did you actually take on board what I and other posters were saying about respecting your soon to be sexual partner in good time about what type of sex to expect. Just what they were consenting to?

That it does fall into lack of consent on their behalf. That the sex might not be what they wanted but they felt pressured to continue through. It certainly may not be what happens in your situation, but do you see where it could happen to others where a trans partner isn’t honest?

Positrans · 22/12/2020 10:37

@Datun

" A girl doesn't develop testicles. And a boy doesn't develop a womb to begin menstruation. "

Well, no one develops a womb or testicles at puberty. They develop secondary sexual characteristics.

"And you certainly don't understand the implications of egg extraction from little girls. Of course."

I do - I know someone who went through it at 14. He said it was extremely unpleasant, but that it was also a profound relief to be able to progress with his transition whilst having options for fatherhood in the future. He has no regrets.

Winesalot · 22/12/2020 10:42

And you certainly don't understand the implications of egg extraction from little girls. Of course.

Yes. When this was pointed out on a previous thread, there were crickets but no acknowledgement. When grown women suffer strokes and other life shortening effects from hyperstimulation of the ovaries, what chance does a young girl or teen have? I have read that it is worse but I haven’t sought evidence. Because, the risks are certainly not going to be lower.

Also, there is plenty of evidence that states the very very low success rate of these ‘banked’ gametes. It is like cruelly selling dreams.

DialSquare · 22/12/2020 10:44

I would just like to reiterate my THANK YOU too.

Positrans · 22/12/2020 10:45

@Winesalot

Suggesting I'm a rape apologist who wants children to die to prove my point however, is monstering.

Out of curiosity, did you actually take on board what I and other posters were saying about respecting your soon to be sexual partner in good time about what type of sex to expect. Just what they were consenting to?

That it does fall into lack of consent on their behalf. That the sex might not be what they wanted but they felt pressured to continue through. It certainly may not be what happens in your situation, but do you see where it could happen to others where a trans partner isn’t honest?

Well, I am at least glad that you don't fall into the "we can always tell" category.

If you're pressuring someone to have sex, you are already committing a crime. If you reveal a penis at the last moment when a vagina was clearly expected, then you are probably stupid. It doesn't happen in real life - trans women are generally fairly terrified about dating and many people think that a beating or even murder are actually justified if they find out their sexual partner is trans.

However, a trans women who is passable and has a vagina, is under no obligation to reveal her medical history. People should just be upfront about being transphobic or just not wanting a sexual partner who happens to be trans, then the trans person is not outed, and can get out of the situation, and the prospective partner gets to avoid sex with a trans person. Win win.

Positrans · 22/12/2020 10:47

@Winesalot

And you certainly don't understand the implications of egg extraction from little girls. Of course.

Yes. When this was pointed out on a previous thread, there were crickets but no acknowledgement. When grown women suffer strokes and other life shortening effects from hyperstimulation of the ovaries, what chance does a young girl or teen have? I have read that it is worse but I haven’t sought evidence. Because, the risks are certainly not going to be lower.

Also, there is plenty of evidence that states the very very low success rate of these ‘banked’ gametes. It is like cruelly selling dreams.

It seems you are willing to consider all potential negative outcomes except the trauma a trans child goes though at puberty without blockers.

You probably ought to read Theo's words here:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-55369784

ALittleBitofVitriol · 22/12/2020 10:48

The idea of egg retrieval at 14 is monstrous, absolutely monstrous. I'd be horrified if I believed you.