Can someone please explain... (trans)

[WednesdayAllTheWay]

So I've been trying to follow this trans situation for a while but now having skin in the game in the form of a child (and also noting through work how more and more people are identifying as the opposite gender) I need to understand it better.
Feel slightly embarrassed asking but:

1. How exactly do the words sex and gender differ in this area?
2. What reasons do trans people give for wanting to change their physical bodies? As in what do people believe they will get from this that they couldn't get in the body they were born with?
3. What are children being taught at school about this?

Thanks!

So do women face sex discrimination or gender discrimination?

No they can never ‘actually change sex’ but the aim to be a man or a woman is different than aiming to be a disabled person when you’re not one

Is it though? There’s so much wrong with that statement quite apart from the implication that someone disabled is ‘damaged’ and ‘no-one would like to be like them’.

Taking a healthy male or female body and removing healthy, functioning parts is exactly like wanting to amputate a healthy limb. In fact, it’s more so because if you chop off a healthy limb you will in fact then be disabled (unnecessarily so) but removing sex parts won’t ever make someone the opposite sex. So the end point doesn’t exist.

@Flyingin

So do women face sex discrimination or gender discrimination?

Neither, apparently we haz all the privilege donchano?

Although, interestingly, no woman or girl can simply self identify out of oppression others are able to define us as oppressors. Like a paper exercise in problem solving.

Yeah, the aim is different - one's aiming for something achievable, the other's not!

The Other Side would say we face gender discrimination because in their account, it's being recognised as a woman (gender) that makes you a target for all the shit.

Whereas I'd say it's being recognised as a woman or girl (sex) that makes you a target.

But it's becoming more and more obvious that they categorise all sexed language as gender; the word "female" is associated with the class that bears young and "stuff associated with sex class" = gender.

The offensive implication I immediately spot is: oh, so if parents hadn't used sex-based pronouns the paedo next door wouldn't have known which of us to target? And he'd have shrugged and given up on his fondness for little girls because no one would tell him who the girls were? And everything would have been hunky-dory? Bollocks.

I find the statement that a male who identifies as a woman experiences the same discrimination as a female completely superficial. They experience their own types of discrimination, no doubt about it, but it is not the same.

Whereas I'd say it's being recognised as a woman or girl (sex) that makes you a target

The fact that it happens in utero suggests the truth of this statement. Figures I came across last week estimate that almost 200 million female foetuses/newborn infants were killed lat year because they were female. It's femicide.

It's why many NHS local authorities won't tell pregnant women the sex of their foetus, because of high levels of abortion of female foetuses.

PS. I'm not against abortion; I am against femicide!

@334bu "However people with a male body are incapable of understanding what it is to be female."

I agree, but I consider trans women to be female.

"They can behave in a way they think might be feminine "

I don't - I grew up a tomboy and haven't really changed in that regard.

"Their reality is that of a trans person"

I agree - my reality is that of an adult human female who happens to be trans.

"Have I missed something? Where is the evidence that "gender" biology is biological in origin. "

See above for some links, but you'll have to do your own research from there.

"As identical twins are to all intents and purposes clones I would think that the fact that any pairs at all can have one trans and one non trans proves that GID is not genetic."

It clearly shows that there is a genetic component to being trans, but also that there is more to it than that. Identical twins are not actually identical - that's a common misconception.

@gardenbird48 "You were born male and view yourself as a 'tomboy' and have no way of knowing how females experience being female so for the life of me I can't see where 'femaleness' (for want of a better word) can enter your life experience at all?"

I don't consider a trans girl to be male. As for gender identity, as I said before - it's difficult to describe what it's like to someone who doesn't have one (or is not aware of the one they have) - it's like trying to explain what red looks like to someone born blind. There seems to be a part of the brain that recognises the groups we belong to - a female chimp doesn't need to be trained to hang out with the other females - she just knows that's her group. Consider for a moment that the ability to do that is inborn and is a useful evolutionary trait in social animals. In trans people, it has developed in opposition to a lot of the body, hence gender dysphoria.

"could you complete this sentence please? I am female because..."

I have a female gender identity.

"and what evidence do you use when justifying that this overrides the binary of biological sex? Have you had any tests to prove it?"

Biological sex isn't a binary. I haven't had any tests either for being trans or for having migraines, however, I have the set of symptoms for both, and that is considered sufficient for my doctors in both cases.

"out of interest, how do you see this working for the gender fluid people - those who are 'female' some of the time and male the rest of the time?"

You'd have to ask a gender fluid person. However, gender identity exists on a continuum (just like sex) and some people's identity falls right between the two. It's easy to see how one might fluctuate a little when your identity is balanced on a fine point.

@nauticant "Why do you think there's been a push over the past few years by trans activists to say that people are trans without needing to have gender dysphoria?"

There's no push - there's just the observation that a small number of trans people don't have gender dysphoria. There's no sinister conspiracy - it's just an interesting observation.

"The only thing I have left to say to Positrans is the word NO. No, we will not acquiesce in your attempts to colonise womanhood, we will not buy into your spurious, misogynistic arguments, we will not stop fighting this woman-hating ideology, whatever glib falsehoods you and others concoct to try and convince us of your moral right to oppress us. No, I do not and will never agree that you are a woman, I do not recognise you as any kind of authority on “femaleness”, you have not convinced me of your integrity or good faith, I do not recognise your right to usurp and destroy my hard earned and fought for rights, I see no substance or truth in any of your arguments, not a single one of them, I am not going to play the game of pretending that you are doing anything other than exercising the 21st century version of male oppression of female people."

Your problem is that I simply don't believe I'm not female, so you saying that to me, sounds just as stupid as it would if I said it to you. I just shrug and continue with my life, which is partly conducted in our shared spaces (you were fine).

I agree, but I consider trans women to be female.

In what sense?

Ffs sex is real. It's how you know who will get pregnant.

Men I. Particular often don't see why that's important

What word would you use to describe the class of people who might get pregnant if it's not female ?
What word should the doctor use when a person says they ain't getting pregnant ?

You can believe what you like in your own head

You can't force other people to tolerate your belief outside of your own head

Let's explore in what meaningful way a subgroup of biologically male people who don't feel like they think males should feel like are in fact female.

@Alethiometrical "being socialised as masculine, the system of gender as a system of oppression of women totally benefits all natal males (whatever their identification)."

Male socialisation doesn't really work on trans girls. This will age me, but I vividly remember my biology teacher stating out loud, in front of the whole biology class, that women don't make good surgeons because they're too emotional. As a pupil with some pretensions to becoming a surgeon one day, this was a blow to me (which is why I remember it so vividly). I just thought, well that's that then, and I can't even tell anyone why I won't be good at it.

"You'd have no reason to be conscious of sexism; and whatever discrimination you face now, is much more to do with your transgression of cultural ideas about men and masculinity, than sexism against women."

Well I pass, so I deal with all the usual everyday sexist bullshit like mechanics assuming I couldn't possible know anything about cars. The other oppression I experienced growing up when I tried to express myself with feminine clothes and make-up. And of course, because I saw myself as female growing up, I internalised all the negative things I heard about girls (see biology teacher above).

"Yes, I loved the patronising "Do your own research" when I asked for sources and references. When I examine PhDs, which claim an 'original contribution to Knowledge' I expect to see a bibliography & references. I don't expect to be told "Go find it yourself' when someone is trying to persuade me of the cogency and validity of their arguments."

I'm not presenting a PhD. Also, science is not generally accepted on this forum - whenever there is a post discussing the complexities of human sex, it's immediately dismissed. Here's a recent example:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4100835-Radio-4-NatureBang-discusses-the-science-of-sex

I mean the science is out there and easy to find because it is actually the standard model, but you have to approach it with an open mind and I think that's difficult if you are so invested in the idea of a sex binary and keeping trans women designated as male.

I have a female gender identity

Okay. I don't have a female gender identity. And I'm female. Don't you think it would be better to have a word for people with "female gender identities" that doesn't create confusion between people who are female by virtue of being born with female biology, and the gender identity crowd? We have very different experiences, different needs, and absolutely nothing in common beyond what all humans have in common with each other. It doesn't create a meaningful category when you lump both groups together, and it causes considerable harm.

@ItsLateHumpty "In some of the worst cases this has allowed male born people to be housed in women’s prisons and those women have been further abused, in some cases sexually up to rape."

All prisoners deserve safety whether that be from other prisoners or from prison guards. You need to protect them from rapists (in both estates) and from murderers (in both estates). Trans women should be in women's prisons because they are women. If they happen to be dangerous, you deal with them like you deal with Rose West or Becky Reid. This is not a trans issue - it's a prison management issue.

@testing987654321 "I'd like to know how many legs humans have. Is it two? Or is it a lot more complicated than that?"

Most have two but some have fewer or more than two so you can have 3 legs and still be human, same way you can have a penis and still be female.

whenever there is a post discussing the complexities of human sex, it's immediately dismissed.

No one is denying the "complexities of human sex" when it comes to people who have disorders/differences of sex development.

@MichelleofzeResistance "In this sense: there has to be respect for and space given to female people who believe in binary biological sex, and perceive people by their sex, and require privacy, dignity and ability to group by sex."

I'm afraid your belief system doesn't dictate who you can or can't keep out of public spaces. That's just not how our society works.

"Which makes it a bit of a stretch for someone male to be explaining why their oppression isn't important, it isn't sex based, sex isn't a thing anyway"

I'm not male. Oppression is important. Sex is a thing.

"if all female single sex spaces are rendered mixed sex and the gender belief being forcibly imposed upon them. In this sense, those female people are being required to validate a belief system they do not share in, with nothing less than their bodies."

Let me paraphrase:

If all female single sex spaces are rendered non-trans only (see how useful the c word is?) and the gender belief being forcibly imposed upon them. In this sense, those female trans people are being required to validate a belief system they do not share in, with nothing less than their bodies.

"Have I missed something? Where is the evidence that "gender" biology is biological in origin. "

See above for some links, but you'll have to do your own research from there.

Did you miss my post?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4104554-Can-someone-please-explain-trans?msgid=102653462

You're not making a very compelling argument for why we should believe anything you say. 'Do your own research' is usually code for 'I don't know so you'll have to find out for yourself'.

I'll have a look at some of the papers from the second Endocrine Society link, but I'm sure if there had been some unequivocal proof that 'gender identity' was biological we'd have heard of it by now (probably would never hear the last of it). And that second article is from 2016, and the references were published between 2005 and 2015.

@Sophoclesthefox "If sex isn’t binary, what are the sexes that aren’t male and female and why do transwomen need to be included with women, if there are other options?"

That's where things start to get interesting. We just don't have the names yet, and of course, when new names and pronouns are suggested, they are widely ridiculed on sites like this.

Do we consider that humans are a bipedal species or are they on a spectrum of legs? Do we consider that cats are four legged animals? Any anomaly in the number of legs is due to medical reasons. You're really not convincing in the slightest.

This is not a trans issue - it's a prison management issue.

Sex segregation is an extremely basic and important component of prison management.

@HecatesCatsInXmasHats "As Michelle says it's very familiar to those of us used to dealing with patronising men. I also note that any empathy whatsoever for females or any attempt to meet women half way is entirely missing, because complete capitulation is required."

I'm not patronising - I'm just trying to be polite and to return a soupçon of banter. I'm sure you've met women you thought were patronising though - maybe they have blue brains ;-) I do not require, or ask for your capitulation - I simply go on with my life regardless of your position.

@9toenails

I agree with all the main points, but I already said that - I'm a sceptic, and if I am open to the idea that I'm not even typing this, I must surely be open to the idea that I am mistaken about other things. But as I said I have no particular reason to believe I'm wrong at the moment.