Can someone please explain... (trans)

[WednesdayAllTheWay]

So I've been trying to follow this trans situation for a while but now having skin in the game in the form of a child (and also noting through work how more and more people are identifying as the opposite gender) I need to understand it better.
Feel slightly embarrassed asking but:

1. How exactly do the words sex and gender differ in this area?
2. What reasons do trans people give for wanting to change their physical bodies? As in what do people believe they will get from this that they couldn't get in the body they were born with?
3. What are children being taught at school about this?

Thanks!

There has been talk that brains can reflect the hormones in your body. And of course... there is the brain’s reaction to different repetitive stimuli.

But that doesn’t mean that when they were born and as children (before chemicals) their brains could be accessed and sorted into ‘opposite sex’ brain. Just imagine if it was true, there would be no need for these vague lists for diagnosis. So.... why isn’t it used as a reliable diagnostic tool? Must be a reason.....

That would be ‘assessed’!!!

How can brains more closely resemble the brain of the opposite sex if we can't sex brains ?

People who argue the pink/blue brains don't seem to understand this.

The other thing I don't understand are the arguments about sex characteristics as though being trans is a disorder of sex development even though trans people are generally as fertile as the average person.

And if you look at descriptions of "gender identity" it was originally used to describe how someone understood which sex class they belong to. That's the only way it could be fixed by age 3.

I can't follow the mental gymnastics required to understand what non-binary even means or how a man who won Olympic men's sports and fathered children was really a woman the whole time. So any concept of gender identity that is established by age 3 must be a much simpler one, like understanding just that you're a girl because you have been told so.

@Deliriumoftheendless

It’s like the changing rooms in most budget gyms all over the country. Toilets on one side , showers enclosed, lockers, space to change in.

I have no gym option that doesn’t have this set up.

Council run pools tend to have changing villages- all lockers and plenty of staff wandering about to make sure you’re only changing where you should but I’ve never been to a gym where there’s enough cubicles to change and I’ve never seen gym staff in the changing rooms keeping an eye on things.

So yeah, they’re not some weird anomaly it’s a fairly standard set up. And if you’ve had a shower how do you get dressed without being seen naked? And even if you do the towel dance, you can’t expect everyone else to.

So it’s communal changing room or no gym round here.

I've never been to a gym and never wanted to. I wouldn't use any facility which involved being naked in front of others or having to see other people naked.

This encapsulates a major problem.

Had trans people been saying “we want a space to preserve our dignity as well as everyone else’s” the majority of posters here would fully support that. (For all the likes of Posi want everyone to think the women of Mumsnet would brandish a crucifix at anyone vaguely masculine the majority actually want fairness for all).

I don’t want trans people to feel they can’t go to gyms or try clothing on or be unable to go to the toilet whilst out and about and if had been about creating spaces for trans people (eg individual cubicles that face the gym floor so no one - perv or violent (male) transphobe van corner anyone and threaten them a huge amount of feminists would have supported this.

But it’s all “I can take my penis wherever I want and if you see it tough shit, if you can look at another vagina you can see a dick. It’s my right! And I’ll punch you and slur you if you disagree!” and we’ve all seen that shit before and we are well aware of what it means.

@Winesalot

There has been talk that brains can reflect the hormones in your body. And of course... there is the brain’s reaction to different repetitive stimuli.

But that doesn’t mean that when they were born and as children (before chemicals) their brains could be accessed and sorted into ‘opposite sex’ brain. Just imagine if it was true, there would be no need for these vague lists for diagnosis. So.... why isn’t it used as a reliable diagnostic tool? Must be a reason.....

On the GIRES website there is information about a study about how transgender brains look different, how this proves transgenderism blah blah blah.

And then at the end it basically says 'oh but not all trans people have these markers so you can't use scans as a diagnostic tool, you just have to take their word for it anyway'.

Which kind of renders the entire study pointless doesn't it?

www.gires.org.uk/biological-correlations-of-atypical-gender-identities/

I wouldn't use any facility which involved being naked in front of others or having to see other people naked.

Ha dido, that reminds me of being a 19 year old student. I'd moved near to a swimming pool, so going for an early morning swim seemed like a great idea. I'd only attended family friendly sessions before when swimsuits would be worn in the open showers to rinse off and everyone changed discreetly. I was simply not prepared for the amount of mostly middle-aged nakedness on display at 8am. I decided it wasn't for me.

@DidoLamenting

Asking disingenuously what communal changing rooms are, and professing bafflement and disgust that they exist, is another staple of twitter

I'm not entirely sure what is meant by a "communal changing room". I haven't been in public swimming pool for at least 20 years. I used to go to the private one at my son's school up to about 10 years ago. The single sex changing rooms were not communal. It definitely was not the case that women were walking around naked. If that is what is meant by "communal changing room" I wouldn't use one.

I could have written that Dido word for word.

(I do hope you are not poorly, Dido as I notice you posted in the middle of the night. If so get well soon xx)

The two poshest gyms I have been to have both had single sex communal changing rooms. They had a couple of cubicles but most people just got changed in the communal bit. Some people, like me, would try and cover up when changing, even around other women, others just did the whole bend over naked to put lotion on stuff. Definitely not a place for penis!

Both my local council swimming pools have unisex 'changing villages' with tonnes of cubicles of varying sizes.

Am I the only one who doesn’t care if there are any brain differences for certain transgender people? That still does not alter the fact that we all fall into one of two distinct sex classes. And that there are legal and safe guarding reasons why no males should have access to certain spaces. And there are spaces which should be penis free.

Some studies point to brain differences in people with anorexia (I cannot remember exactly, but it is in the visual centre). There are also studies trying to establish if anorexia is genetic and if it runs in families. That does not alter the fact that anorexia is a mental illness. Which should be treated. And not with liposuction.

Apparently gender dysphoria is now not a mental illness and it appears that some trans women are very happy with their penises. Good for them! I fully support their right to privacy, employment and to live their lives as they want. I wish them well. But they should not be in female sports, on female short lists and in female spaces. For sex (not brain) reasons. I don’t want my 11 year old daughter to change in the (communal) changing room of our swimming pool next to somebody with a penis, regardless of what that person’s brain looks like. Especially not if that person uses their male socialisation to forcefully insist that they should be displaying their penis to young girls and that those girls will have to live with it if they want to go swimming.

Surely it’s not difficult to get dried and dressed under a towel in a changing room the way people do on the beach? At my gym, some women do this to varying degrees and others don’t bother. There are a few cubicles, but I’ve never noticed a queue for them.

Just one man in the room would completely change the free and easy atmosphere.

Which kind of renders the entire study pointless doesn't it?

Pretty much. I have read several studies and basically there is this disclaimer often. And what is understood though is the brains develop differently depending on the regular stimuli is. And then once cross sex hormones taken, other changes occur.

So yes, there probably is some similarities but as every report says ‘ there are also as many similarities in people of the opposite sex who are NOT identifying as trans’. It negates the theory completely.

anorexia is a mental illness. Which should be treated. And not with liposuction.

This, 100%. Why is there only one delusion we have to pretend to believe?

CatsCantCatchCriminals2 how kind , thank you. I'm fine. I think I must have vampire genes. Left to my own devices at weekends or on holiday I get later and later before I go to bed !

We have a local swimming pool with a mixed sex area (with cubicles that never are enough), and also single sex areas. It is frequented by many Muslim women. I once waited 25 min for a cubicle in the mixed sex area as I didn’t want to take my 9 year old son into the single sex women’s changing room. Out of respect for other women.

I did send my two daughters to get changed so they could dry their hair. The thought of someone like posi walking into the single sex female area and waving their “female” penis around makes me really angry.

Can’t we just say there are women born with female biology and there’s some women born with male biology? Just as most men are born biologically male but there are some men born with female biology? Wouldn’t that solve things?

No, because if you’re born with male biology you’re a boy and then a man. That’s the only way of being a man, and it rules out being a woman. How does denying that solve anything?

That’s fine Dido, no ones making you go, but what of all the people who do want to go to the gym and have no other option than communal changing rooms?

Saying you don’t want to go to a gym doesn’t mean I shouldn’t.

If it's not a mental illness then what is it?

A physical illness? Serious question, I'm very confused.

(Very pleased you're well, Dido. That vampire thing was me too when I was younger. These days I can be in bed at nine o'clock. Such a lightweight now!)

The communal changing spaces are common. They accommodate the numbers better than cubicles. I certainly don’t have an issue with them usually. I get in and change quickly facing the wall and go about my way. I understand that others do.

So, frankly whether you use them or not, I doubt they will be going anywhere (they might get a few cubicles). Small businesses won’t have the budget to provide enough for change of classes etc.

So with that understanding, operating in the world as it exists now, it is very enlightening to continue to see the disconnect of people who fully believe that they are women but have/have had a penis thinking they have a right to use those facilities with women and children.

And they deny the existence of these facilities because they want to discredit the person asking. It is so manipulative.

A post op person is that sex. Jeez.

I sincerely hope lurkers are reading and taking note of this

I hope so too. But can I warn my sisters here to be careful? Bunbury alert

I've just had a vaguely disturbing email from MNHQ, in a friendly tone letting me know:

we've been getting reports about your posts on Mumsnet, most recently on this thread in which you said

This is the first time I've had this warning so I find the phrase "getting reports about your posts" a bit sinister. I suppose others have had similar emails and it's fairly run of the mill?

But it makes me wonder about becoming/being the object of a concerted campaign to be banned. I've asked MNHQ if the reports are multiple, and if they come from registered MN users, or randoms ...

Just be careful, m'dears.

Now off to name change - I've been doxxed before, & the complainants tried to get me sacked from my job, so I don't want it happening again.

A woman is still a women after a hysterectomy for cancer
A man is still a man even if his lower half is been removed in war

Assuming that a post surgical person is now the opposite sex could be incredibly hurtful to those people.

Why is there only one delusion we have to pretend to believe?

I had a post upthread deleted for mentioning mental illness & an MNHQ warning about being banned. Obvs a sensitive issue ...

@Deliriumoftheendless

That’s fine Dido, no ones making you go, but what of all the people who do want to go to the gym and have no other option than communal changing rooms?

Saying you don’t want to go to a gym doesn’t mean I shouldn’t.

I didn't say anything of the kind. I'm not sure what point you are making.

I was looking for clarification of what a communal changing room was. Now I know and I wouldn't use one. It would make no difference how rigidly single sex use was enforced.