Can someone please explain... (trans)

[WednesdayAllTheWay]

So I've been trying to follow this trans situation for a while but now having skin in the game in the form of a child (and also noting through work how more and more people are identifying as the opposite gender) I need to understand it better.
Feel slightly embarrassed asking but:

1. How exactly do the words sex and gender differ in this area?
2. What reasons do trans people give for wanting to change their physical bodies? As in what do people believe they will get from this that they couldn't get in the body they were born with?
3. What are children being taught at school about this?

Thanks!

This made me laugh: "Conclusions: Although the mechanisms remain to be determined, there is strong support in the literature for a biologic basis of gender identity. "

Which basically means there might be something there, but they can't prove it.

support in the literature for a biologic basis of gender identity.

That holds even if "gender identity" is a psychological disorder. I fully accept that there could be a genetic basis, as with many medical and psychological conditions. It doesn't prove males are women.

It's a physical condition that typically leads to mental health problems, as do many physical conditions.

Or vice versa.

@sanluca

This made me laugh: "Conclusions: Although the mechanisms remain to be determined, there is strong support in the literature for a biologic basis of gender identity. "

Which basically means there might be something there, but they can't prove it.

Scientists generally follow the weight of evidence. As it stands, the weight of evidence favours a biological aetiology for gender identity, which is why august medical organisations like the Endocrine Society, publish pages like the one we are discussing.

None of which proves it isn't simply a psychological disorder. Framing it otherwise is political.

"Or that there literally is no category for the class of human being who has the capacity, all being well medically, to produce ova and bear young."

There is such a category, but it's not necessarily just "female".

Please now provide your evidence that a 'male' without a medical condition and using the accepted centuries old definition of male, has successfully gestated another human being.

Because, otherwise, this is just more conflation of using gender to mean the classification of sex.

Are we talking about the august Endocrine Society that has allowed so many children and teens to effectively become living experiments for using puberty blockers? That august medical organisation?

Positrans, your own copied words show very clearly that they think there might be something, but there is no actual evidence. What they have done is gathered evidence from various studies and tried to twist it into showing that transwomen have female brains or something. But all they show is that hormones influence the way brains operate and people like the same things regardless of their sex. It is the age old nature versus nurture: what came first, being transgender or being forced to adhere to society's rigid expectations based on the sex you are born as?

Despite this being an interesting discussion, gender identity is not sex. Women are defined and protected by law based on their sex. Transwomen are not of the same sex. End of debate.

That's only one of the papers linked to on one summary. And you have missed the actual conclusion drawn by that particular study's authors:

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25667367/

"Conclusions: Although the mechanisms remain to be determined, there is strong support in the literature for a biologic basis of gender identity. "

No, it's you who has missed the actual conclusion. You've quoted the 'conclusion' from the abstract. This is the actual conclusion from the full paper. (The link is to a word document which is the only full text link I could find which is available for those of us without academic access.)

www.klinefelter.se/wp-content/uploads/KS-Gender-Identity-Biological-Basis-review.docx

Conclusion
Current data suggest a biologic etiology for transgender identity. Studies of DSD patients and neuroanatomical studies provide the strongest evidence for the organic basis of transgender identity. Because the sample sizes of most studies on this subject were small, the conclusions must be interpreted with caution. Further research is required to assign specific biologic mechanisms for gender identity.

Most of the studies are on people with DSDs, not transgender people. The studies are small. They say that the conclusions should be interpreted with caution because of small sample size. Also, some of the 'biological' results were in MTF transgender people who had been treated with oestrogen or FTM transgender people on testosterone.

It is so concerning that nearly all the studies and papers being linked utilise and politicise people's medical conditions to prove the pseudo scientific theories being posted here.

There is so much misinformation being spread based on these assertions, and any scientist or medical clinician that states something differently is 'cancelled' and face job losses and research grants because of it.

Being trans is a disorder of sex development

You could make an argument that it's a sort of psychological disorder of sex development, yes.

The implication being that the normal human developmental pathway involves identifying and adhering to the sex stereotypes relevant to one's body type.

In other words: sexism is normal and natural. Now where have we heard that before?

And you also see in action, the problems of the ideology of the Cartesian mind/body split. The denial of the material reality of the body, and the insistence that an idea (I'd call it a 'category error' actually) transcends that material reality.

While we're on the topic, this desperate hunt for a biological basis for transness in the brain strikes me as a sort of 21st century hunt for the pineal gland.

august medical organisations like the Endocrine Society, publish pages like the one we are discussing.

The original Endocrine Society statement from 2017 only cited 5 distinct references from journals (with 3 of them cited 3 times each to bulk out the reference list). There were a few other references which weren't from peer reviewed journals.

I notice that they've just updated this statement (15 December 2020). I'll have a read and see if it's any more convincing than the original. The reference list this time is up to 13, and it looks as though they are all different this time.

@Winesalot

Are we talking about the august Endocrine Society that has allowed so many children and teens to effectively become living experiments for using puberty blockers? That august medical organisation?

Original endocrine society statement is here: www.endocrine.org/advocacy/position-statements/transgender-health" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20200312050136/www.endocrine.org/advocacy/position-statements/transgender-health

Thanks OldCrone. I will read it a little later.

If being trans is a physiological condition, does this extend to all trans identities unde the umbrella, so for example cross dressers have a physiological disposition to cross dressing? How would that manifest in a non binary or gender fluid person, would their physiology wax and wane across this spectrum of sex? That’s a pretty wacky hypothesis.

It could very well be that there might prove to be some genetic underpinning that leads people to develop dysphoria around their sexed body, but you’ve taken that premise and stretched it to an absurd degree, as if you think women here don’t have the brainpower to understand the links you post.

And even if they did find that, male bodies still don’t belong in women’s spaces, despite your charming exhortation upthread that women just need to learn to deal with that.

It could very well be that there might prove to be some genetic underpinning that leads people to develop dysphoria around their sexed body, but you’ve taken that premise and stretched it to an absurd degree, as if you think women here don’t have the brainpower to understand the links you post.

And even if they did find that, male bodies still don’t belong in women’s spaces, despite your charming exhortation upthread that women just need to learn to deal with that.

All of this. As I said this thread has turned out identical to a hundred other "let me educate you about my trans identity and why you should pay attention" threads we've had.

Comparing the two versions of that Endocrine Society statement, what stands out is tht there is now an emphasis on the treatment of children which wasn't in the original.

I'll highlight some of the changes from the original (changes in bold):

Transgender individuals are often denied insurance coverage for appropriate medical and psychological treatment. Those gender diverse youth who have barriers to accessing adequate healthcare have poorer overall physical and mental health compared to their cisgender peers.5 Over the last decade, there has been considerable research on and development of evidence-based standards of care that have proven to be both safe and efficacious for the treatment of gender dysphoria/gender incongruence in youth and adults. There is also a growing understanding of the positive impact that increased access to such treatments can have on the mental health of these individuals.

The Endocrine Society’s Clinical Practice Guideline on gender dysphoria/gender incongruence6 provides the standard of care for supporting transgender individuals. The guideline establishes a methodical, conservative framework for gender affirming care, including pubertal suppression, hormones and surgery and standardizes terminology to be used by healthcare professionals. These recommendations include evidence that treatment of gender dysphoria/incongruence is medically necessary and should be covered by insurance.

...

Many transgender individuals have been subjected to conversion therapy, or efforts to change a transgender person’s gender identity using psychological interventions; this is known to be associated with adverse mental health outcomes, including suicidality, and is banned in 20 states and the District of Columbia.

Transgender individuals who have been denied care show an increased likelihood of dying by suicide and engaging in self-harm.7 Transgender/gender incongruent youth who had access to pubertal suppression, a treatment which is fully reversible and prevents development of secondary sex characteristics not in alignment with their gender identity, have lower lifetime odds of suicidal ideation compared to those youth who desired pubertal suppression but did not have access to such treatment.9 Youth who are able to access gender-affirming care, including pubertal suppression, hormones and surgery based on conservative medical guidelines and consultation from medical and mental health experts, experience signi cantly improved mental health outcomes over time, similar to their cisgender peers.10-12 Pre-pubertal youth who are supported and affirmed in their social transitions long before medical interventions are indicated, experience no elevation in depression compared to their cis-gender peers.12 It is critical that transgender individuals have access to the appropriate treatment and care to ensure their health and well-being.

All of this. As I said this thread has turned out identical to a hundred other "let me educate you about my trans identity and why you should pay attention" threads we've had.

Even to the links being posted..... like we haven't seen them before. I am genuinely keen to see new studies and new links. But they only ever seem to be utilising and politicising medical conditions of others. for gaining false credibility. Still, it is sometimes good to look back on these links and reread with current events in mind.

There seems to be a pool of about four articles all trans activists rely on.

Transgender/gender incongruent youth who had access to pubertal suppression, a treatment which is fully reversible and prevents development of secondary sex characteristics not in alignment with their gender identity, have lower lifetime odds of suicidal ideation compared to those youth who desired pubertal suppression but did not have access to such treatment.9 Youth who are able to access gender-affirming care, including pubertal suppression, hormones and surgery based on conservative medical guidelines and consultation from medical and mental health experts, experience signi cantly improved mental health outcomes over time, similar to their cisgender peers.10-12 Pre-pubertal youth who are supported and affirmed in their social transitions long before medical interventions are indicated, experience no elevation in depression compared to their cis-gender peers.

Thanks oldcrone. Seems quite astounding that the NHS Tavistock could not access or provide such evidence that this 'august medical institution' has stated definitely exists and in quantity. Or, maybe this actual evidence doesn't stand up to scrutiny and what happens in reality. As three very learned and esteemed High Court judges discovered.

Even to the links being posted..... like we haven't seen them before.

The link to the Endocrine Society statement was interesting because I hadn't realised it had just been updated. I'm wondering about the timing of this revision, now focusing on children, when the original barely mentioned them.

Insurance figures quite heavily even in the original statement, and I wonder if there is fear that the Keira Bell judgment will be used to halt experimentation on children in the US as well, and their insurance gravy train will come to a halt.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

There seems to be a pool of about four articles all trans activists rely on.

I am sure that they don't actually believe the 'Stop justifying' article. It is so obviously a mess of contradictions and spurious links. There is no robust evidence presented at all.

But hey, we see it regularly.

Seems quite astounding that the NHS Tavistock could not access or provide such evidence that this 'august medical institution' has stated definitely exists and in quantity.

It does really, doesn't it? But I'm sure that was the fault of Stonewall and Mermaids not intervening, or women's crowdfunders, or something.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

There seems to be a pool of about four articles all trans activists rely on.

and this is an interesting thought. Why, when the current treatment protocols have been used 'for ever' (ie. approx. 5 yrs although some activists are claiming up to 30/40 yrs) and there is rather a large amount of money in the multi million dollar 'Sex Reassignment Surgery market' (if you get a chance to watch Jennifer Bilek's video on this, it is utterly amazing) - you would think they would have thought to invest at least a little bit of that into some actual research - wouldn't they?? Why does the mahoosive industry that is forming off altering the bodies of transgender people think that they deserve substandard, non-evidenced healthcare? I am a bit confused as surely they must be expecting the malpractice lawsuits? Or is the level of capture such (Martine Rothblatt seems to be a key player in this, is also a lawyer and seems hugely influential as are some of Martine's colleagues) that they will just get the law changed to prevent lawsuits??

How is this going to play out, given that they seem to have spent a number of years quietly building this industry, why would they put its future at risk?

Can a human change sex? Well, I consider trans girls to be female, so they don't have to.

I couldn't care less that you consider, males to be female and Vice versa and I'm sure most of the women here don't either.

You wanting a certain cohort of males/transwomen/y-chromosome people to have the right to shower and change with teenage girls/female children/elderly women, adult XX chromosomed people isn't happening.

I'm afraid, positrans, the answer is still no.