Australian GC Feminists silenced on everybump (formerly essential baby.

[kagado]

First time poster, long time lurker. Thanks to mumsnet along with some awesome Australian posters over on the Essential Baby forums in Australia who first spoke up about this and pointed me in the mumsnet direction.

I’m hoping to post this story here that has played out over the last week - we have been silenced within our online community and would like to be able to direct some of our cohort here to be able to read what has happened and continue with the conversation we have been having - I hope this is ok.

The Essential Baby forums were owned by a large media company and in early November an announcement that after 20 years of active discussion on all sorts of topics the forums were being closed. There was much sadness, a flurry of activity to open up a new forum led to everybump. An amazing effort and a real show of solidarity from the community.

In recent times there were quite a few respectful, fiery, and informative threads about trans issues, and the intersection with women’s issues on the old Essential Baby Forums. Once we moved over to the new forum we continued the discussions.

Sadly, the threads were allowed to go on for a certain period of time, then unceremoniously, some of the key posters were barred from posting (you can guess one was me).

Reason for the ban:

“Hello

Please be advised that you have been placed on 24hr PA. This is due to inflammatory posting and/ or challenging Mod decisions on the boards whilst threads are being reviewed.

The Thread in Feminism is so hurtful to so many of our members so we need to ensure its not going to continue to be that way.

We have removed them for review and are taking time to do this now.”

We were sent this pm on the lifting of our ban (note, there was no inflammatory posting, we are pretty careful in our tone and wording as most gc feminists here would be used to doing also there were definitely no abusive messages sent as has been implied)

‘ Dear All

This PM is a first and final warning before banning. A forum announcement has also been made and is copied at the end of this message.

We do not have the resources nor patience to ensure the safety of other members from the discriminatory posts made in the now deleted gender critical feminism threads. Even though that means shutting down ‘feminist’ discussion. Hiding discrimination under the guise of a feminist issue does not make discrimination legitimate, any more than ‘debates about racial issues’ in the 1950’s made racial discrimination legitimate.

Post approval is now removed from your account. There will not be a further ‘post approval’ step or any warning before banning if you make similar discriminatory posts in the future. Or personal attacks against Mods or Admins.

The false allegations posted about the content of PMs on 9EB mean that we are also pre-emptively informing you we won’t hesitate to publish our PMs, and your responses (if any), alongside any relevant posts that may misrepresent the content of this message. On this issue, do not have any expectation of privacy in PM communications.

A forum announcement has been made. As stated, this is not a unilateral response but a joint one from the entire EB volunteer team.”

Then an announcement was posted to all the forum members:

“A message to all of our members.

Some of you will not like it. Some of you will think it is over the top, because you have only seen parts of the issues. Actually, it is more like a forceful lecture than a message. It’s not a rant because I mean every word.

Sorry about that if you had nothing to do with it.

The next abusive message sent by someone careless enough to use their own IP address will find that address permanently blocked from the Every Bump forum. From both posting AND reading - i.e. worse than banned.

This is not a unilateral response. The entire team has spent more time than we want to think about consulting to provide a joint response.

Firstly, and very obviously, this forum is NOT Essential Baby. It is not run by a corporation or commercial concern. Every Bump is staffed entirely by volunteers. Who have lives just as busy as yours.

We don’t have the time or resources to drop everything to give an instant co-ordinated response. It would be nice if we could provide constant updates to all members on what is happening - but we can't co-ordinate that at the same time as discussing the primary issue due to resources.

It would be great if the rules had already been finalised and posted - but dealing with these issues only delays that process. In the meanwhile, the old EB Rules stand.

This forum is run by a group of people who have given up their time and money to make this space welcoming. Whilst we want member feedback and suggestions, we expect them to be polite and respectful. Almost all of our members have no difficulty with this.

Abuse of our volunteers is not going to be tolerated no matter how righteous you think your cause is. If you think that is a dictatorship, feel free to go start your own community that welcomes abusive messages.

For members not involved but concerned we are unreasonable or need thicker skins, here are two (of many) actual examples within the last 48 hours of what is ok and what is not ok:

• “Why am I on post approval and I want it take off by tonight please?” - ok.

• “The Admins are Cnts and the mods are (#%)” - will not ever be tolerated.

The Admins and Mods have committed to making EveryBump a welcoming, safe and supportive space for all our members. As volunteers, we are not paid enough to tolerate abuse. We won’t.

We believe that all voices should be heard, and that all members should be treated with respect in the posts of other members. We will not sacrifice these principles for advertising revenue, (or even to retain or attract new members), despite accusations.

All voices being heard does NOT mean people have ‘freedom of speech’ or ‘the right’ to post anything they want.

Outright blatant attacks on another member will not be tolerated. Even if that member is a Mod or an Admin, or the attack is in a message sent to a Mod or an Admin. Even if sent via PM or email.

Indirect attack or discrimination against members or groups also will not be tolerated. Even if it is claimed to be part of a feminist discussion. Even if it is posted in a ‘clinical’ fashion - this does not prevent posts from being insensitive, hurtful, denigrating or devaluing others. Even being a vulnerable person yourself does not give you that ‘right’.

Because none of this somehow ‘prevents’ posts from being discriminatory. (Or prevents them from being hate speech - if it is clear posts or a collection of posts are discriminatory, we do not need to decide if they amount to hate speech). We simply will not tolerate posts that are discriminatory, whether sexist, racist, ableist, homophobic, misogynistic, misandrist, etc. Even if that means shutting down a ‘feminist’ discussion.

Members of our community are hurt by such posts, for themselves or for their loved ones. ‘All voices being heard’ means vulnerable sections of the community should feel safe to read and post.

If you want to have that discussion, find another place to have it. Or, work out how to discuss the topic without making discriminatory (sexist, racist, ableist, homophobic, misogynistic, misandrist etc.) posts. If you cannot, the reason is probably that either the foundations of your topic, or your reasons for discussing it, boil down to your belief in your right to exclude or discriminate against ‘others’ no matter how harmful the effect on them.

If you cannot work out if your posts are discriminatory, swap words out with 1950's USA racial issues. It will leap off the screen at you.

Now to be really specific and clear:

Repeated insensitive remarks (or attacks) regarding trans people will not be tolerated. Nor purposeful trolling or inflammatory posting.

Moving the Gender Critical Feminism threads off active topics was not an attempt to silence, but an attempt to give a volunteer admin/mod team time to respond after less forceful feedback was ignored. In hindsight, we should have locked the threads immediately pending review and put posters on post approval than merely removing the triggering threads from the active topics list.

Now these threads have been reviewed. The entire Admin / Mod team considers the posts, taken collectively, to be discriminatory, insensitive, hurtful, denigrating and devaluing others

The appallingly abusive and obscene anoymous emails sent to the Admins after threads were removed from active topics (but still accessible via the forums) reinforce my view that any 'theoretical' or clinical discussion was never more than window dressing

Warning has now been given. It is a first and final warning. There will not be another one for those who received it via PM.

We wanted to tell EB discussing Gender Critical Feminism is OK if it can be done without negatively referencing trans people. But, we don’t have the resources required to actively moderate such threads at the level shown to be needed. That approach was attempted before the threads were moved off active topics.

GFC is officially the first topic off limits on this forum, ahead of even current court cases.

There are multiple levels of censorship in almost every publication. I'm also not going to put up with rants about censorship breaching your rights to freedom of speech. It doesn't, you can say anything you like on your street corner, or build your own site, and anyway Australian law doesn’t actually provide you with such rights.

Australian law does say you can’t be discriminatory in contexts such as employment, and that hate speech is not allowed. We won’t allow discriminatory posts here either.

If your desire is ‘uncensored’ ‘rights’ to post anything you want on someone else’s site, reddit or 4chan / 8chan is a better option for you.;

* Post edited by MNHQ *

Anyway, so we’ve been barred from posting anything gender critical or even discussing trans issues on the board due to the hurt feelings caused. If anyone from old eb or new eb would like to continue or vent over here, please do.

I'm here!

The blatant silencing of GC voices is disgusting!

Hi! Welcome!

Just to let you know, there are very strict rules about how we can discuss things here to make sure the conversation remains respectful. I think the phrase 'peak trans' is discouraged (possibly it is even banned). I advise reading the pinned but at the top.

It's okay once you get used to it

There are some Aussies on here already so you'll be in good company!

Yes, discussion is allowed, but be careful about wording, and never speak about specific individuals.

I know MN can have a bit of a reputation, but I've always found the vast majority of people to be lovely here, and the ones that aren't I just ignore.

Thanks so much for the welcome - there are a few of us with nowhere to go. I’ll be careful with words etc. Reading the response we got from the mods you would be forgiven for thinking we’re a bunch of nasty right wing bigots, but it’s truly not the case- we’ve mostly come from the left and feel abandoned by it. Familiar story I know. Yes mumsnet has been painted as a devil’s coven where we’ve been banned from.

I'm sorry to read all that - but welcome.

Thank you! We walked on eggshells on the previous forums but it's never enough, is it? Mumsnet is inspirational for having a space for women to talk and organise. I wish there was an Australian equivalent but there's no way we can talk without being accused of transphobia, deleted, accused of harming other posters. Just for wanting a discussion.

I'm glad to be here.

I'm here too. Another outcast.

I’m another EB refugee. I didn’t get kicked out, just left in disgust over the censorship. I’ve only been on mn for a day but really enjoying the conversations.

Warm welcome to Australian feminists. We've read about Australia's increasingly misogynist censorship. There's pressure on women over here too, but much less. And, even self-censoring a bit because of constant demands by those who don't like us, Mumsnet is a great place to talk.

Happy to have you. It is fine to discuss GC topics and women's rights here. It is not difficult to do so within the rules...we have got used to it, although I know some posters felt it was capitulating and an attack on their free speech.

It's a good idea to read through the guidance. And read the posts here, so you see how we discuss without personal abuse or misgendering or targeting individuals.

I'm not familiar with EB in past or present form. Obviously, if some posters have been sweary and abusive to mods/admin, they have to go and it's shame that's been part of the reason which has allowed the forums to become closed to GC posters.

Thanks again. We don’t believe that the forum admins actually think that any abusive messages came from the GC posters (if there were actually any received) but they’ve certainly made that implication and are using it as a cover for barring members and deleting threads.

Yes - mumsnet guidelines are very clear - someone has put a lot of thought and effort into that. I’ll be following them - compared to what we were able to speak about in our previous home without getting deleted and banned it will be relatively easy. We may have to get used to some terms that are not allowed though.

Welcome!

Sorry for posting this lengthy drivel here but numerous posters asked for clarification around the ban. Here’s what has been posted for clarification:

“ 'd like to clarify a misconception by some readers of the earlier announcement, and add to it. Some of you may like this one even less.

The original announcement should have been split for clarity with 2 headings.
"Abuse will not be tolerated'
and
'Topic now banned'.

Please consider these heading inserted above the relevant paragraphs.

In response to some of the concerns raised by members:

Abuse will not be tolerated

Posts denying responsibility for abusive messages have been made. It is entirely possible third parties closely following the thread very quickly organised to send numerous very abusive messages. And that is why nobody was permanently banned. Innocent until proven guilty.

We also drew to the forum's attention that Admins can view IP addresses and match them if needed. Fair warning that you can be caught.

To paraphrase one message received from a recognised IP address:

"Who the fuck do you think you are trying to silence women? You don't get to say what is ok to post, this site is a fucking joke!"

(yes, we do know who sent this one, and that person has not yet actually been banned but received a final warning, because we actually understand people need to let off steam, we do have thick skins. and they obviously didn't realise they could be caught. But we wont accept abuse on a repeated basis from the same member and especially not on the same issue).

The message is one that reminded me to include both misogynist and misandrist in the original announcement. Thus you can guess who received it.

Admins and mods do get to say what is ok to post. That is, basically, a mods job description. If unmoderated sites are wanted, such sites (some of which are total cess-pits) are available as previously mentioned. Cess-pits tend to develop on unmoderated sites.

IP addresses associated with (very) abusive messages (like the one mentioned in the original announcement) WILL be instantly blocked in future. So will the member account associated with that address, if one exists. No warning.

Topic now banned

GFC was not banned as a topic because of abusive messages, or even for 'the topic' per se. It was banned for the actual posts made, the distress caused to other members (who will not ever be identified), and the proliferation of further threads on the same topic once a very light level of moderation began.

The abusive messages reinforced (not led to, reinforced) my (already existing) view that any 'theoretical' or clinical discussion was never more than window dressing - (whether window dressing was a poster's intention, or simply their understanding of GCF arguments).

I accept this was an emotional rather than logical response by which people (including on this occasion, me) seek to further justify a view already held.

Despite that, due to my view already held regarding the content of posts clearly not 'theoretical' or clinical, the lack of abusive messages would not have altered my view on banning the topic. I was not informed of the abusive messages (which were not received by me) until well after concerns about the topic were in mod/admin discussion and I had made my view clear. Please note that my view was not a unilateral decision imposed on mods, or even close to being determinative of the decision to ban GCF as a topic.

Many posts in the deleted threads did not explore how to effect change in the way sex and/or gender are perceived/treated/relevant, whether politically, institutionally, socially etc.

Instead, much discussion was about how allowing trans women (them) to use women's toilets etc (our space) was unsafe or would feel unsafe, based on a potential theoretical future risk, without any concern or even acknowledgement of the actual real and current harm being done to trans people by (some of the quickly moderated) posts. Let alone the safety or feelings of trans women in the theoretical future.

This is what theoretical or clinical discussion of GCF looks like. journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10 ... 4020927029

As it is undoubtedly me (CP) that would have to respond to claims regarding 'rights' or censorship, I (CP) am the one that 'will not put up with them'. That doesn't mean I will ban you (unless abusive personal attack and admin/mod consensus and warnings ignored). It means I'm not going to respond to and argue every post claiming such. The mods will monitor these posts the same as other posts.

In any event, a banning (not being placed on post approval for 24 hours or so to allow time for mod/admin discussion, but actual permanent banning) is never going to be a unilateral decision. It will be thoroughly discussed, for hours, by the entire* mod/admin team.
*unless someone is in hospital / on leave etc

As stated in the original announcement:

We wanted to tell EB discussing Gender Critical Feminism is OK if it can be done without negatively referencing trans people. But, we don’t have the resources required to actively moderate such threads at the level shown to be needed.

That approach was attempted before the threads were moved off active topics.

I also remind that the decision was made by an entire team after debating many of the concerns now also raised by members. The decision was not made unilaterally.

For those raising the issue of cancel culture - this article is an interesting read that several members of the team have reviewed in recent days. Its not an academic article' which is a shame. Perhaps someone can start a thread and link one that opposes this article. fair.org/home/panic-over-cancel ... rojection/ . I cannot make it any clearer that we are imposing the minimum possible restrictions we can - but some will still consider this suggestion patronizing.

Do not discuss GCF, because a small forum does not have the resources to moderate out discriminatory posts / arguments. Choose another forum.

If you want to discuss censorship, cancel culture, feminism (minus discriminatory posts against trans people whether or not the post specifically references gender critical feminism discussion), current news issues etc, please go right ahead.

But please don't give me any snark for 'telling you what you are allowed to post'. Or 'how you are allowed to discuss". Members have been ASKING what they are 'allowed' to post.

Please do not take this as an invitation to argue why we, the mods/admin, "made the wrong call". to re-hash the banned thread/topic and why it, specifically, should not be banned, to troll, or as an invitation to otherwise snark or throw shade at mods/admin. Please feel free to discuss and debate the theoretical and practical social/political/gender/class/caste/minority group etc implications that censorship or imposition of rules, including on forums, cancellation of speakers, denial of visas etc has on social dynamics etc. Please feel free to say you don't like it.

Do not make discriminatory posts. We are not requiring people to be politically correct. There is a difference between hurt feelings, and denying or invalidating someone else's identity or reality. A difference between being rude, and gas lighting.

If you are genuinely unsure about whether you can post a topic/something, ask. Me. or another Admin. Or a Mod. By PM. Feel free to share the response PM via PM if the answer was no. Please allow at least 24 hours for a response.

Parliamentary privilege has been mentioned somewhere. Bear in mind that parliamentary privilege protects politicians from saying ANYTHING while actually in parliament. SHY had to sue that fool for what he said in the media, not what he said on the parliamentary floor. If he wasn't so careless, he would have got away with it, business as usual. Parliamentary privilege does not protect forum posts. And we will not allow discrimination,

For the fullest and final transparency this team considers possible to provide:

1. the warning PM sent to some members said:

This PM is a first and final warning before banning. A forum announcement has also been made and is copied at the end of this message.

We do not have the resources nor patience to ensure the safety of other members from the discriminatory posts made in the now deleted gender critical feminism threads. Even though that means shutting down ‘feminist’ discussion. Hiding discrimination under the guise of a feminist issue does not make discrimination legitimate, any more than ‘debates about racial issues’ in the 1950’s made racial discrimination legitimate.

Post approval is now removed from your account. There will not be a further ‘post approval’ step or any warning before banning if you make similar discriminatory posts in the future. Or personal attacks against Mods or Admins.

The false allegations posted about the content of PMs on 9EB mean that we are also pre-emptively informing you we won’t hesitate to publish our PMs, and your responses (if any), alongside any relevant posts that may misrepresent the content of this message. On this issue, do not have any expectation of privacy in PM communications.

A forum announcement has been made. As stated, this is not a unilateral response but a joint one from the entire EB volunteer team.

The announcement says: (text of original announcement as posted on public forum).

1. We received multiple complaints/reports. We have since received multiple messages in support/thanks following the original announcement. There are about 60 likes on the announcement which I believe sets a forum record. We had one member that deleted their account due to the GCF threads. Hurting, not flouncing.

Next, and to once again be very clear; disruptive trolling will not be tolerated.

Mentioned due to tonight's clearly coordinated efforts. There are more locked and deleted threads. There are members feeling mocked by deliberate trolling.

Finally, any member who would like to inform themselves about GCF should consider a Google search using the terms "define gender critical feminism". I appreciate it is unfair that I am able to post "about" this topic when nobody else may. I am, however, pointing out that there are many other sources of information about GCF and that members are free to seek them.

The journal article mentioned above is 3rd on the results list. It is not a peer reviewed journal article, but it is certainly an analysis of GFC, (i.e. of the theory or movement) itself.

Make up your own mind. Just don't discuss it here.

Google search
TERFs: the rise of “trans-exclusionary radical feminists ... - Voxwww.vox.com › terfs-radical-feminists-gender-critical
Sep 5, 2019 — Often known as TERFs, or "gender critical" feminists, anti-trans groups are teaming with conservatives on a sex discrimination Supreme Court ...

Why the words we use matter when describing anti-trans ...theconversation.com › why-the-words-we-use-matter-w...
Mar 5, 2020 — TERF is not a slur. Instead, we should use words that accurately describe how some feminists are actually anti-trans activists.

Philosophical Problems With the Gender-Critical Feminist ...journals.sagepub.com › doi › pdf
In general, gender-criti- cal feminism advocates reserving women's spaces for cis women. A few, though not all, gender-critical feminists make exceptions for some ...
by A Zanghellini · ‎2020 · ‎Related articles

What is 'gender critical' anyway? On essentialism and ...overland.org.au › 2019/05 › what-is-gender-critical-an...
May 8, 2019 — At first blush, the phrase 'gender critical feminist' is essentially meaningless: all feminism is 'gender critical' by definition. The TERF label is at ...

Radical feminism - Wikipediaen.wikipedia.org › wiki › Radical_feminism
Radical feminism is a perspective within feminism that calls for a radical reordering of society in which male supremacy is eliminated in all social and economic ...
‎Theory and ideology · ‎Movement · ‎Radical lesbian feminism

TERF - Wikipediaen.wikipedia.org › wiki › TERF
TERF is an acronym for trans-exclusionary radical feminist. Coined in 2008, the term was originally applied to a minority of feminists espousing sentiments that ...

Responding to gender critical feminism: On gender, sex and a ...criticallegalthinking.com › 2020/04/16 › responding-to...
Apr 16, 2020 — We need spaces where we can discuss feminist politics to improve all our feminisms. The cheerleading, backslapping and feuding of twitter is not ...

Feminists like me aren't anti-trans – we just can't discard the ...www.theguardian.com › commentisfree › sep › feminis...
Sep 30, 2020 — If we replace 'sex' with 'gender' as a way of thinking about ourselves, it will be harder to tackle sex-based oppression, says Guardian journalist ...

We 'Gender-Critical' Feminists Pay a Price for Speaking Out ...quillette.com › 2019/12/29 › we-gender-critical-feminis...
Dec 29, 2019 — Disagreement over sex and gender have cleaved the feminist community between those who believe that biological sex is immutable, and ...

The divide over scholarly debate over gender identity rages onwww.insidehighered.com › news › 2019/07/19 › divide...
Jul 19, 2019 — These events, among others, suggest that the so-called TERF wars -- in reference to the derogatory term “trans-exclusionary radical feminist” ...

POSTED AT MIDNIGHT BECAUSE IT TOOK MANY HOURS TO WRITE. NO CONSPIRACY THEORIES PLEASE.

That was such a hard read. Surely it could have been said in a lot less words.

I noticed that it now can only be read if you log in as a member. That's a change. Guess they want to keep it secret.

Welcome to Mumsnet

So we've learnt that to shut that forum down you just need to go on there and call the Mods and owners sweary names and make shitty posts?

Welcome! This site - in spite of occasional irritation at the rules - is a joy. Well-informed, passionate and very funny.

Welcome, naughty ladies!

hi Australian feminists - sounds like you're having a tough time over there. I love Australia - I've visited for work and fun - such a good place.

Fingers crossed between you and the amazing Senator Claire Chandler you can help bring back some sanity!

Welcome!

@DeaconBoo

So we've learnt that to shut that forum down you just need to go on there and call the Mods and owners sweary names and make shitty posts?

Exactly. Just make sure you time it to happen when there's a slightly controversial topic and then they'll blame the posters who are being slightly controversial.

In the dying days of old Essential Baby there were members who were openly declaring their dislike of the new forum. I wouldn't put it past some of them to be contacting mods and admin to cause trouble, especially if they tried to imitate the writing style of some of us.

Hi Aussies! Welcome to the naughty step

I am starting to think there is a really interesting doctoral study into how the trans debate blows up womens forums. I used to be a member of one that blew up in exactly the same way you’re describing here.

Your mod needs an editor, by the way, that is one detailed explanation 🤣 (not having a pop at you, but whoever wrote it. Less is definitely more for these things, gives everyone less ammunition- bitter experience as a former mod speaking here!)