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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Urgent action for those in Scotland

382 replies

SusanSmithFWS · 05/12/2020 18:58

The amazing Johann Lamont has put in an amendment to the forensic medical services bill. This is a really important piece of legislation which seeks to make the process easier for rape victims and we support it. We are concerned, however, that although the women who testified that access to a female examiner was the most important concern, the bill still refers to the gender - instead of sex - of the examiner.

Sex, unlike gender, is defined in the Equality Act and there is provision for recruitment under schedule 9. We believe that a small change will ensure that there is no ambiguity.

We would urge anyone from Scotland to please write to all eight of their MSPs and ask them to support the motion.

As Susan Dalgety reported in the Scotsman:
Her amendment may be only six words long – “for the word ‘gender’ substitute ‘sex’” – but it gets to the heart of the current debate about who counts as a woman.

“Women should be able to choose the sex of the person who conducts the investigation,” Johann told me last night. “This is a key test for the Parliament, which is committed to rooting action in the understanding of experience. Women courageously and powerfully spoke up so that others might fare better than them.

“The amendment is tiny but would be a huge step in listening to survivors. The committee was convinced. The Parliament should be too.”

Six words can make a world of difference.

www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/transgender-debate-msps-must-stand-womens-sex-based-rights-key-vote-bill-help-rape-victims-susan-dalgety-3057640

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SusanSmithFWS · 10/12/2020 23:29

Thank you to everyone who emailed and lobbied on this. We are rather "tired and emotional" just now.

Johann was outstanding. Her speech was so full of intelligence and fury.

We are horrified that TRAs are suggesting tonight that this was an attack on rape crisis services. We had the support of many survivors and counsellors who wanted their voices heard. The Bill was the result of long years of work and RCS deserve all credit. We just wish they carried through to this amendment which reflected the needs of the women they brought as witnesses.

Women deserve to be heard and they should never be shamed into silence.

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TheShadowyFeminist · 11/12/2020 00:00

"Wrap it right roond ye, fudmeister!"

Grin

I'm just blown away that the result was so overwhelming in favour of the amendment.

Libdems & greens will be toast next May.

allmywhat · 11/12/2020 00:05

there is evidence that woke staff are tampering with MPs correspondence? Really?

It's anecdotal! Women on here who have written to their MPs multiple times who finally secured in-person meetings with them, and explained everything only to find their MPs knew nothing about the issue and found it all extremely surprising and alarming. More than one woman.

But the radio silence from MSPs before this vote seems to be explained by behind-the-scenes discussions in the SNP.

I do wonder though if anyone who's good with FOIs could find out more about what went on behind the scenes re this amendment. Especially in Rape Crisis Scotland.

littlbrowndog · 11/12/2020 00:57

Just saying

Urgent action for those in Scotland
334bu · 11/12/2020 01:20

The abstention was from Christine Graham who cannot vote either yes or no as she is a Presiding Officer

bookgirl1982 · 11/12/2020 07:42

I don't want to put a dampener on this but a cyclical thought...

Did this amendment get passed because the MSPs truly support it, or because they don't think it makes any difference? Ie with self-id and the current state of capture of govt and organisations, transwomen will be allowed into these roles and women will feel obliged to accept treatment/services from them.

bookgirl1982 · 11/12/2020 07:42

Cynical even...

Dances · 11/12/2020 08:06

Wings' contacts said SNP finally supported it because they realised it would pass anyway, and they didn't want a defeat. They also dont want more attention on this, as the point was to get this shit in under the radar. That part didn't go so well.

WouldBeGood · 11/12/2020 08:16

I’d heard the same as @Dances

Dances · 11/12/2020 08:17

And a biological males still runs Forth Valley Rape crisis centre. This person 'identifies' as a woman but did not disclose their sex at interview, then boasted about on Twitter. They have now deleted those tweets. They also tried to stand as an MSP for the Nats, I believe they are a Women's officer for the SNP, or similar.

Dances · 11/12/2020 08:17

Male not males

WouldBeGood · 11/12/2020 08:32

That’s extremely creepy

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/12/2020 08:47

We are horrified that TRAs are suggesting tonight that this was an attack on rape crisis services. We had the support of many survivors and counsellors who wanted their voices heard. The Bill was the result of long years of work and RCS deserve all credit. We just wish they carried through to this amendment which reflected the needs of the women they brought as witnesses.

TRAs and their supporters have suggested that every single time there has been some social media pressure on women's services to respect the women who use their services' clearly expressed wish for female only space. Its a well honed DARVO tactic. It's not you.

SunsetBeetch · 11/12/2020 08:51

Wow, great news!

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 11/12/2020 09:24

That's really interesting, allmy, if "interesting" meant "deeply chilling".

ArabellaScott · 11/12/2020 09:44

@bookgirl1982

I don't want to put a dampener on this but a cyclical thought...

Did this amendment get passed because the MSPs truly support it, or because they don't think it makes any difference? Ie with self-id and the current state of capture of govt and organisations, transwomen will be allowed into these roles and women will feel obliged to accept treatment/services from them.

It may not make much immediate difference - as noted there aren't enough female examiners in Scotland to meet requests, although it was good to hear about moves being made to resolve this situation.

The first point that matters is that:

  1. We have a clear discussion and agreement on the fact that the terms 'sex' and 'gender' are not interchangeable.

and

  1. We have seen some people argue very hard that the word should be 'gender', while still maintaining that it doesn't make any difference. Why would they do that?

Remember that the largest part of the populace still thinks these terms are the same thing. The largest part of the populace has not grasped yet - or is only just starting to grasp - that 'gender', as it is being used at the moment, effectively means 'men and women'.

So this whole debate has laid out in the clearest possible terms that 'sex' means biological sex and 'gender' means - well, whatever you want it to mean.

I think this debate potentially shifts things. Not least because of the overwhelming agreement of parliament. And the fact that the SNP sided with 'sex not gender'.

It perhaps lays the path for the coming court action from For Women Scotland, where they challenge recent Scotgov moves trying to replace 'sex' with 'gender'.

  • And lastly that Labour MSP who tried to drag the argument back to transpeople and maintain that a male with a GRC could still present themselves as a female even if a rape victim had specifically requested a female (why the fuck would anyone do that?)(plus I believe the Equality Act makes very specific provision for exemptions even when someone has a GRC for instances exactly like this) (not a lawyer, though) showed with quite breathtaking cruelty how skewed this debate has become, and what women are up against. How women who are asking for single sex spaces - sometimes for incredibly intimate and upsetting reasons - are being set up as 'bigots' and treated like pariahs. It was a very clear illustration and will have provided insight, I think.
littlbrowndog · 11/12/2020 10:23

That was Monica Lennon

HecatesCatsInXmasHats · 11/12/2020 10:29

*I think this debate potentially shifts things. Not least because of the overwhelming agreement of parliament. And the fact that the SNP sided with 'sex not gender'.

It perhaps lays the path for the coming court action from For Women Scotland, where they challenge recent Scotgov moves trying to replace 'sex' with 'gender'.*

Fingers very much crossed

PerkingFaintly · 11/12/2020 11:22

I think this debate potentially shifts things.

Yes, I agree. And also about it no longer being under the radar.

WouldBeGood · 11/12/2020 11:32

I think it does. It’s also been helpful to use in discussion with people who are not usually interested in this stuff as it’s so obvious to anyone normal that victims should be able to choose the sex of their examiner.

It’s made it less nebulous for people, so they can really see the dangerous nature if all this, as opposed to shrugging and saying “Each to their own”.

ArabellaScott · 11/12/2020 12:00

Oh! Finally!

I get a reply from someone! Green. Patronising, offensive, and really quite infuriating. Am composing a reply.

terryleather · 11/12/2020 13:18

@ArabellaScott

Oh! Finally!

I get a reply from someone! Green. Patronising, offensive, and really quite infuriating. Am composing a reply.

Is it the same patronising sanctimonious pish that the rest of us with Green MSPs received?

I wasn't going to bother replying to the fudmeister, but I might reconsider...

334bu · 11/12/2020 13:25

mobile.twitter.com/mbmpolicy/status/1337372353446240264

Govt funded groups still challenging definition of female today.