Amnesty - “no such thing as a biologically male/female body”

[NellieEllie]

A week ago I saw that Amnesty had responded to a complaint about the open letter signed in Ireland and in that response had said the above.
I wrote to Amnesty as a long time supporter and queried whether this was their official stance, and have today received a reply.
This is an extract - see esp para 3.

“We stand over the letter, which we signed to stand in solidarity with the trans community and against those spreading hate.

There are attempts to decontextualise certain phrases used in the letter in a way that misleads and confuses people, which is a common tactic used against many of our human rights campaigns. For example, the letter asks for media and politicians to not give legitimacy to those spreading vitriol or misinformation. This is being framed as a call to take away their political representation, which anyone reading the letter will clearly see is not what it means.

Another example is the letter’s referring to those ‘defending biology’. Allowing self-determination of our bodies is a basic principle of feminism and human rights. There is no such thing as a ‘biologically female/male body’ - a person’s genitalia doesn’t determine their gender. Those that seek to exclude and disenfranchise groups of people, or force people into one gender or their other on that basis, are working against basic human rights principles.

We feel much of the current media reporting and conversations on social media with regards to self-identification is misguided. Restricting the rights of transgender people, and omitting the use of inclusive language will not advance or protect women’s rights.“

I was hoping that it was a case of an earnest woke teen manning the social media account, but clearly not.
How can they promote such doublespeak? Their last magazine was full of references to women in developing countries - do they REALLY think that there is no such class? “A person’s genitalia does not determine gender” is a separate statement - but they are conflating the two and specifically denying biology.

I am so wearied by this nonsense.

Don't be silly, Milly.

Those poor women could have just turned round and identified out of being trafficked, raped and treated as baby-making machines, couldn't they.

Couldn't they?

[quote MillieEpple]Tell that to these poor women.
www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/baby-making-factory-nigeria-ogun-b1766419.htmlutm_content=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1607108114[/quote]
This is the sort of thing I fear is going to happen with calls to ensure there are surrogates for everyone who wants one

Its harrowing.

twitter.com/MForstater/status/1334973569256878083

Apparently Maria Munir, who is AmnestyUK_LGBT trans lead and works for Stonewall wrote the Amnesty/Liberty joint statement.

They is non-binary.

“They is” makes the grammar police side of me cringe

Oh dear “Maria revealed they hadn’t come out to her family”

oops

@EyesOpening

Oh dear “Maria revealed they hadn’t come out to her family”

Funny how that happens. Almost as if pronouns are actually based on sex and that is how everyone has always used them.

I suspect that someone like Maria wouldn’t exactly keep it secret to anyone, let alone family members.

Allowing self-determination of our bodies is a basic principle of feminism and human rights.

Strange that it isn’t mentioned here
www.amnesty.org.uk/universal-declaration-human-rights-UDHR

Can’t help thinking that if everyone could simply self-determine their own bodies there would be no need for feminism.

Bump

Maria Munir is the person that came out as non-binary essentially on TV to the nation during an Q&A with Obama when he came to the UK a few years ago. It was all over the news at the time there is no way her family didn't see any of it.

Additionally I remember a particular interview Munir gave on how when she was born her dad wanted to throw a party to celebrate but people in their Muslim community told him something along the lines of "why bother? its not a boy". I believe Munir has grown up with a chip on her shoulder at the hands of the misogyny in her community and is now projecting it outwards. I feel sad for her but at the same time her form of escapism is damaging womens rights because she resents being a woman.

@StrippedFridge

All of transgenderism appears to be based on deep-seated sexist beliefs. Lady brains and all that.

I worked for Amnesty a very long time ago. We researched horrifying abuse of peoples. I still have nightmares about it. Those things have not been eradicated. Far far from it. How the fuck did they lose their way so badly? Are the Irish researchers avoidant of information about torture and murder because it is so disturbing and so they play with "nice" abuse like mis-gendering? I cannot imagine how a person could spend their days immersed in the type of data I was immersed in and then think hey yeah I need to focus on educating the world that gender expression is more important than sex, that's where I will spend my social capital.

FFS people across the world are being tortured and enslaved. Sort yourselves out Amnesty. You are implying that torture, slavery, rape and murder are no longer a bother.

Top post!

I think I will go and bang my head against the wall. This is all becoming too much.

You've said it all, StrippedFridge. It's like asset stripping. I'm so angry about the direction it's taken. Most of the people who donate are doing it to support the fight against torture by the state, political freedom and freedom of belief. Not this luxury belief that male "identity" should trump sex in matters of privacy, dignity, representation, safeguarding and protection.

And not for the right of men to sexually exploit poor women.

How can they look at the range of issues they have fought for and not see the pure idiocy of this?

Hats off to you @StrippedFridge - I couldn’t face such things so intensely.

Not this luxury belief that male "identity" should trump sex in matters of privacy, dignity, representation, safeguarding and protection.

Male identity and male needs. See also prostitution is a human right, sex work is work etc

Don't take your hat off to me. In the end I couldn't take it any more.

The knowledge of how privileged we are here in the UK has stayed with me. I have the fear. Especially examples like Zimbabwe, which in living memory was on par with Portugal, and now look at how its people live. Iran over the last fifty years too. Trump makes me shiver. Democracy and rule of law are fragile. There is no inevitability to freedom and "progress" persisting in any country. I don't think people in the secular rich West properly grasp that.

Did you get any counselling? Police who have to watch video nasties get counselling, firefighters get counselling (these two I know but I assume other emergency services staff do to?)

@StrippedFridge

All of transgenderism appears to be based on deep-seated sexist beliefs. Lady brains and all that.

I worked for Amnesty a very long time ago. We researched horrifying abuse of peoples. I still have nightmares about it. Those things have not been eradicated. Far far from it. How the fuck did they lose their way so badly? Are the Irish researchers avoidant of information about torture and murder because it is so disturbing and so they play with "nice" abuse like mis-gendering? I cannot imagine how a person could spend their days immersed in the type of data I was immersed in and then think hey yeah I need to focus on educating the world that gender expression is more important than sex, that's where I will spend my social capital.

FFS people across the world are being tortured and enslaved. Sort yourselves out Amnesty. You are implying that torture, slavery, rape and murder are no longer a bother.

You are so right!

SO many organisations and charities - not just Amnesty - are wasting resources fight FOR this nonsense, rather than against torture, slavery and abuse - and many more are forced to waste money fighting it.

When push comes to shove, misgendering is NOTHING in the grand scheme of things. Torture, slavery, racism, misogyny are what LITERALLY kill people.

Using the wrong pronoun just puts them in a hissy fit, no matter what they claim..

I do wonder StrippedFudge if there is something in your point about staff not being able to cope with the horrific realities of real human rights abuses? This is purely anecdotal, but a friend who works in a sector where you would expect to come across service users who've experienced violence and abuse says younger members of staff routinely ask to be removed from particular projects because they struggle when confronted with troubling situations. I'm not saying staff working in these areas shouldn't receive support and counselling to do difficult jobs, they absolutely should, but it's hard. It must be a lot easier ordering rainbow flags and talking about male people who believe they're the opposite sex as 'the most vulnerable' in society, rather than confronting some of the truly fucking awful stuff going on in the world.

Not this luxury belief that male "identity" should trump sex in matters of privacy, dignity, representation, safeguarding and protection.

"Luxury belief" is EXACTLY right.

Thank you Eresh - I wanted to get tha message across but couldn't think of how to express it.

"Luxury belief" is exactly what it is.

Completely agree that this is a "luxury belief" held by people who aren't aware or are happy to ignore that even in countries like the UK women's equality is built on a scaffolding of legislation - access to birth control, maternity rights, legislation on rape, property and employment etc. - that has only existed for a short time and can be taken away.

You need a huge amount of privilege to believe that if your civil liberties are threatened, anyone will care about your sense of self.