Keira

[YouNoob]

Live tweets from Belstaffie here:

mobile.twitter.com/Belstaffie/status/1333716720176033793

I’m stuck in a meeting on metal fatigue (yes really). Can someone catch me up? Please???!!

I dunno. Not read as much as you guys, but I think this is one of those areas where we may have to see how it plays out in practice.

If you have ever given medical consent it often feels just administrative, you know what you want, the medic reads some info out on risks, you nod and sign.

I mean , who decides if a child has really understood the immediate and long term consequences?

[quote ItsAllGoingToBeFine]Full judgement here:

www.judiciary.uk/judgments/r-on-the-application-of-quincy-bell-and-a-v-tavistock-and-portman-nhs-trust-and-others/[/quote]
Thanks for this

@BettyDuKeiraBellisMyShero

archive.md/Itmqg archive for the Mermaids tweet.

Looks like the headline on BBC Cambridgeshire has already been changed?

Yes they have changed it.

Tavi statement:

Talks about awaiting outcome of today's furthe court proceedings? What are they referring to?

Guardian keeping it quite low key whilst no doubt they ring round the usual suspects to write columns about how terrible it is and literal violence

www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/01/children-who-want-puberty-blockers-must-understand-effects-high-court-rules

Hmmm, now there's a list of the things that a child needs to understand, anyone else worried that it might be possible to coach a child to give the "right" answers.....?

This seems an important point raised in the judgement

'One of the issues raised in these proceedings is the non-existent or poor evidence base, as it is said to be, for the efficacy of such treatment for children and young persons with GD.'

@sultanasofa

Look what GIDS will now have to demonstrate in order to proceed with puberty blockers in children!

The court held that in order for a child to be competent to give valid consent the child would have to understand, retain and weigh the following information:
(i) the immediate consequences of the treatment in physical and psychological terms;
(ii) the fact that the vast majority of patients taking puberty blocking drugs proceed to taking cross-sex hormones and are, therefore, a pathway to much greater medical interventions;

(iii) the relationship between taking cross-sex hormones and subsequent surgery, with the implications of such surgery;
(iv) the fact that cross-sex hormones may well lead to a loss of fertility;
(v) the impact of cross-sex hormones on sexual function;
(vi) the impact that taking this step on this treatment pathway may have on future and life-long relationships;
(vii) the unknown physical consequences of taking puberty blocking drugs; and
(viii) the fact that the evidence base for this treatment is as yet highly uncertain

Will this just mean a change to the lines they are told to rehearse?

Utterly, utterly fucking amazing.

Keira. Thank you.

StillTish had tweeted some important previous stuff; this is very pertinent from barnardos:

www.barnardos.org.uk/news/joint-statement-barnardos-nspcc-national-childrens-bureau-and-childrens-society-about-gender

And
'We note here that we find it surprising that such data was not collated in previous years given the young age of the patient group,the experimental nature of the treatment and the profound impact that it has'

I can see Mermaids will start coaching kids now intensively if they are 14 or 15 about what to say to be considered 'competent' instead of just how to get the treatment you have chosen (without proper balanced research and information and understanding of that information).

@DeaconBoo, yes, that's what I thought.

@sultanasofa

This seems an important point raised in the judgement

'One of the issues raised in these proceedings is the non-existent or poor evidence base, as it is said to be, for the efficacy of such treatment for children and young persons with GD.'

No shit!

Barnardos et al:

On matters of health treatment all children have the right to be listened to independently and have their wishes taken seriously – this includes children and young people who identify as trans and who may be undergoing hormone treatment therapy.

@sultanasofa

This seems an important point raised in the judgement

'One of the issues raised in these proceedings is the non-existent or poor evidence base, as it is said to be, for the efficacy of such treatment for children and young persons with GD.'

Definitely, and I hope this leads to some actual action on this. It's disgraceful that they claim to have not really thought about it.

Cross post Deacon

Two questions:

How does this affect medical insurance / liability in the UK in this area?

Does this now mean that any parent who takes their child abroad for this treatment without court approval is committing an offence?

Re. the Mermaids tweet, this is the charity who claimed the effects of puberty blockers were reversible, denied they'd said it, and then faced a veritable Twitter shitstorm back in August for their controversial performance of the dance of the shifting goalposts.

I was hoping at the time their day had come, but it all went quiet albeit some major organisations quietly dropped the name. Perhaps now this judgement has been passed this issue will start to see sunlight again. What a disingenuous, immoral, totally self-interested shower.

So first off ... it’s not a big surprise that trans activists are identifying as having won the case.

Second, the headlines saying “under 16s can get puberty blockers if they understand treatment” are being a bit obtuse. Yes, technically this is true. Under 16s, as per Gillick can consent to medical treatment if they truly understand and consent.

However, the crucial part of this judgment is the court saying there is a legal presumption that for this kind of experimental treatment there is a presumption that under 16s cannot consent and it is dubious that under 18s can consent, so they will have to get a legal court order in order to get treatment (much like 16 year old Jehovah’s witnesses need to get a court order to refuse a blood transfusion).

What the court is saying is “they need to understand to have consent... and due to the nature of this treatment we don’t think they do understand so there’s no consent here.” Honestly , mermaids is right to panic. This is a devastating blow to the rhetoric that blockers are harmless, safe and reversible and fine to give to very young kids.

Very important thread:

twitter.com/stilltish/status/1333691447317585922?s=21

@ItsAllGoingToBeFine

Tavi statement:

Talks about awaiting outcome of today's furthe court proceedings? What are they referring to?

Has there been a decision on appeal?

The two legal teams have put there cases but I don't see an answer.

@picklemewalnuts

What about testosterone? I know a 16 yr old waiting for testosterone. Does that mean she's already on puberty blockers?

Is testosterone to be treated in the same category as puberty blockers?

If the child is being treated by the NHS then yes, 12 months of blockers is required before cross sex hormones, so the 16 year old you know is likely to be on blockers right now.

If the child is under the ‘care’ of the Webberleys/GenderGP, then it’s anyone’s guess.

Currently the under 16s are not supposed to be prescribed cross sex hormones by the NHS, so in that respect, nothing has been changed by this, although it’s possible that the proof of actual informed consent (via court hearing) will apply to cross sex hormones for 16 and 17 year olds (seeing as those are not and have never been described as ‘fully reversible).

(And I wouldn’t be at all surprised if there are some kids out there who have been prescribed cross sex hormones on the NHS under the age of 16, despite the prohibition)

How can the TRAs see this as a win?

Because many of them are raging narcissists who cannot believe they may be wrong. It's not an option.

These are the same arrogant people that argue with biologists that the biologist doesn't know anything about biological sex, because some music DJ told them in a blog post that there are actually 3 sexes 🙄 They used to boil my blood, but now I just pity them.