Keira

[YouNoob]

Live tweets from Belstaffie here:

mobile.twitter.com/Belstaffie/status/1333716720176033793

80% costs

Just to be clear (solicitor here) - 80% is bloody brilliant. It's essentially what you get for indemnity costs (higher amount because your opponents case was crap and/or they have played their hand really badly) rather than the mere 60% you get for normal costs.

Will the Keira Bell case have shot Jolyon's fox, as far as the legal challenge he intends to bring?

doesn't this make Mermaids rather untenable, going forward?

@Melroses

Wonder what the rationale is for 80 though?

My understanding for civil court case* is that 100% is very rare. You are expected to fund a reasonable case and you get costs awarded for having to go beyond that.

*only one that I was involved in which should never have got as far as court, but some people will argue up is down - tend to keep away from courts

Seems fair enough. I’m just happy that Keira, Sue and Mrs A aren’t left personally out of pocket.

How could any pharmacy continue to fulfill these prescriptions without themselves being caught up in legal implications?

I can’t see any way that they could get around this really. I looked up an NHS shared care agreement (between GP and and endocrine specialist) for the same drugs in the case of precocious puberty

and a) they are administered (first dose) by the specialist hospital department nurse and (ongoing) by GP nursing staff, so any pharmacy receiving a non-NHS prescription should see it as a red flag situation and an NHS prescription would be rare enough to be easily checked via a phone call

and b) they are generally discontinued by the age of 10 so there is very little to no overlap between the patient cohort who are having their early puberty delayed and the patient cohort that are having their standard time puberty delayed for gender reasons.

www.berkshirewestccg.nhs.uk/media/2512/apc-pg-030-the-use-of-gnrh-agonists-in-central-precocious-puberty-cpp.pdf?UNLID=5291984992019343360

The only other paediatric population who are prescribed these drugs (off label) are early-pubertal girls with cancer, who may be offered it by oncology departments in an attempt to shut down ovaries for a couple of months while on chemo treatment (and actually, ovarian tissue storage seems to be the better option).

Thus there is very little reason for a high street pharmacist to be issuing these meds to under 18s.

Oooh Nauticant I'd forgotten about that

This is a judgement on what is the current law.

It is amazing how far the law has been muddied, to the point that pharmacies became unsure.

The Tavistock did not have the evidence to show the court.

Practice has just been built on layers of misinformation, propaganda and confusion.

Keira Bell

Trending as us states politics?!

For Keira. Congratulations!

I noted that the fox killer complains that no trans children's voices were heard. Yet the judgement specifically quotes several of them stating how happy they were with their treatment. One of them tellingly talks about how they haven't contemplated having a sex life - which is then specifically referred to in the judgement. Can this man actually read?

@nauticant

Will the Keira Bell case have shot Jolyon's fox, as far as the legal challenge he intends to bring?

If the Tavistock brought in proper treatment - proper psychotherapeutic support - then Jo's case would be quite justified.

@SunsetBeetch

This thread is moving fast!

I know. I went away for a bit and it had another 100 messages.

@yourhairiswinterfire do you have a link to that Lush tantrum? I’d love to see it.

@yourhairiswinterfire

I can't believe it even needed to get this fucking far, that professionals had to be dragged to court to understand that children cannot consent to things that they can't fully understand.

I really can't believe it.

Exactly this.

I’m torn between such enormous relief at the decision, and devastation that it was ever needed.

From the judgement:

It is highly unlikely that a child aged 13 or under would be competent to give consent to the administration of puberty blockers. It is doubtful that a child aged 14 or 15 could understand and weigh the long-term risks and consequences of the administration of puberty blockers.

In other words, what should have been blindingly obvious to any sane person, particularly those charged with the care and protection of children, all along.

And yet the NHS, the NSPCC, Barnardos, the Children’s Society - they didn’t get this, still don’t get it apparently. They don’t get something this simple and fundamental. The people whose task is to provide health care for children, to safeguard children, don’t understand this, don’t care about it, don’t want to even hear about it.

And we get called bigots for trying to MAKE them think about it.

I am so happy that here in the UK we are standing up to this madness, that we are mounting a coherent challenge to the prevailing orthodoxy of trans über alles, and this judgement, along with the rejection of self ID, and the DfE guidance a month or two ago, gives me hope.

But that it ever came to this. That reality and reason could ever have been this badly distorted. (And still are; will be for a good while to come yet.) I still struggle to process it all.

But bloody hell. Today is a significant victory! Bloody well done Keira, you absolute shero. Well done, a thousand well dones, and thank you so, so much. ❤️

Trending in the UK at the moment:

I stand with Keira Bell
Tavistock
Gillick
GIDS

@nauticant

Will the Keira Bell case have shot Jolyon's fox, as far as the legal challenge he intends to bring?

He can still argue that children should wait no longer than 18 weeks for an appointment (which isn't a bad thing in itself) but they won't be automatically given puberty blockers when they get there. GIDs I presume will have to resume a degree of therapy and watchful waiting.

I would like to hear Kiera and her legal team's speeches. I can't find any yet. Anyone else had any luck?

I was thinking of Jolyon needing to steer his case away from the direction of puberty blockers HPFA. An intervention he seems to be rather enthusiastic about.

(But to be honest my main motivation for posting was to write shot Jolyon's fox.)

@MammothMashup

Trending as us states politics?!

That happened the other day with Joanna Cherry. I think it must be a twitter glitch.

@YouNoob

I would like to hear Kiera and her legal team's speeches. I can't find any yet. Anyone else had any luck?

No, I was looking for them earlier. Have only seen a pic of Keira in front of the press.

Crocodile eating the bath bombs. It always happens.

The biggest problem, as Jean Hatchet has just pointed out, is that the media are captured and thus so many people, including some clinicians and therapists, nhs commissioners etc are believing the fallacy of the wrong body trope.

It's going to be very hard to make sure enough clinicians and therapists are available for GIDS when they're so thin on the ground as it is.

Certainly the pathways need to be analysed too. Eg those with a range of other things making MH challenging get appropriate help for those issues too.

A very cross tweeter made the useful point that since puberty blockers need to be administered reasonably early to stop puberty, most kids will be put on them before hitting 16. So even if 16-year-olds are assumed to be able to consent, most of the kids who would have gone on blockers now won’t.

Bloody well done Keira, this must have taken so much courage to speak out to protect children from being failed as you were failed, and I am so pleased for you

Maugrim's tweet is interesting read back to back with Transgender Trend's statement. They list, clearly, the reasons why a court found this against the law and wrong to be allowed to happen to children, and that much higher standards of protection are required.

Maugrim beefs about how no one affected was allowed to speak (other than Keira, obvs, whom he doesn't appear to count) and to feel that Sad and Emotive Stories would have won the day in convincing a court that law, child protection, child rights and medical ethics should be handwaved away. What else needs saying really about why children need protecting under robust law from adults with a personal agenda? Very well illustrated.

Interesting isn't it, that all this is based on 'but this is more important than the law, above the law, the law will catch us up, the law doesn't apply...' and when it goes to court, no. The law applies. And things have been allowed to happen due to this sacred caste thinking that are shocking, and yes, jobs should be lost and inquiries should be held. This regulatory capture has been appalling in putting aside legal protections and policy.

@fruitbat987

doesn't this make Mermaids rather untenable, going forward?

Gender GP has just tweeted a series of what look like adverts, detailing how they are experts at prescribing blockers for under 13s.

As they're not really in the UK, I dont know if UK law will apply.