Page 2 | Author Naomi Wolf condemns UK's 'moral panic' on trans issues

NiceGerbil · 30/11/2020 02:21

But people don't 'freak' if a person is in the queue minding their own business who is obviously a chap but also obviously quietly doing their thing etc.

IME 'old school' trans sexual types keep their heads down and a blind eye is turned. And TBH there weren't very many.

Women still had the ability to chuck dodgy blokes out though.

Now, with no need to change anything, go where you fancy, but it's a hate crime to say erm hold on. Means that we can't chuck out/ report any chap who is in there.

That's a pretty big deal.

The bogs thing was a social norm not a law. I've been with women who have chucked out/ got bouncers to remove men from the ladies.

New rules. If he says I'm a woman. Transphobic hate crime. Bosh.

Why should we put up with this?

And this is different to sports prisons etc but still matters.

We used to use the ladies to escape from persistent blokes in clubs. You be able to ask a random girl to check if s bloke who looked like X was waiting outside.

Now they can walk in and no one can do anything.

That's not right.

I never realised how much stuff went on in the ladies tbh never gave it s second thought.

Has anyone mentioned Barbie Kardashian yet? Seeing as Ireland was mentioned.

NiceGerbil · 30/11/2020 02:26

The other point I think is relevant about England.

English men are well known for dressing up as women at the drop off a hat. Not so in other cultures.

Around the world maybe it would be pretty out there to think that s straight men would don women's clothes for anything.

Here it's a total thing in loads of situations.

So there's that as well.

I have fond memories of the special forces men I met in s seaside town in the pub in the 90s. Seeing men built like that in skin tight short lycra dresses is something you don't forget

I do wonder though if that's an element of that as well. People say OMG a man dressing as a woman (who isn't trans drag etc). Wouldn't happen.

Erm. It's kind of. Yeah totally usual. Here.

Datun · 30/11/2020 06:08

So PLEASE for the love of god - stop with this fearmongering and hurting trans people in the process.

You cant be serious, connie. Have you seen the death threats, rape threats, relentless doxxing, threatening people's livelihood, etc? From transactivists?

Who are either legally trans or are self id-ing.

Talk to them. It's not women who are giving TRAs a bad name. The disgusting reaction women get for even mentioning their rights is bloody scary. Women have had to hire security for heavens sake.

'Fear mongering' indeed.

NecessaryScene1 · 30/11/2020 06:14

Erm. It's kind of. Yeah totally usual. Here.

It's practically establishment.

I've often wondered if that's a factor.

But it's really hard to say how much we're different to other places in that respect. As an outsider, I feel in no better place to compare America than Naomi is to know anything about the UK...

NonnyMouse1337 · 30/11/2020 06:22

adding that women were far more at risk from men

Huh? Remind me again what's the definition of a trans woman? 🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔

Can I be a trans woman? No? Why not?

YouJustDoYou · 30/11/2020 06:30

What transwomen in women's bathroom supporters spectacularly fail to understand is that the issue is the fact that when transwomen are allowed in women's bathroom/changing rooms etc it leaves the system open to abuse by men pretending to be trans - a surgery done by the american Target chain showed that after they changed their changing cubicles from male and female.to unisex, sexual assaults and voyeurism cases increased. A survey done in the UK showed more sexual assaults happen in unisex changing facilities and toilets. When men are allowed near women and children in intimate settings, there will always, always, be some who will.use the opportunity to perpetrate sexual assault. That's why women fight for the right to safe spaces.

Wrongsideofhistorymyarse · 30/11/2020 06:45

I've disagreed with Naomi and I'm not a bot.

I wish she'd confine her nonsense to the US.

Winesalot · 30/11/2020 06:53

How about, apart from the greater risk of not knowing whether the male in the loo is one abusing self id, that the women who cannot for religious or mental health reasons share with a male be also considered.

Or is Connie only empathising with the males, Therefore the females need to be excluded from public life if they cannot share with males.

You do realize Connie, there are women who are victims of male violence who have calmly and rationally asked to be considered. Obviously, there are solutions for everyone to have their needs accommodated, with more facilities needed in each case, but you don’t seem to advocate sensibly for that. Just for women to let the males share their space - making it mixed sex.

SunsetBeetch · 30/11/2020 07:01

Anyway there are already laws in place against you being molested by anyone in a bathroom

So why do transwomen need to use the womens'?

And perpetrators being arrested after the act isn't very reassuring. And it isn't safeguarding.

God she really is thick isn't she?

SophocIestheFox · 30/11/2020 07:11

I loved her when she wrote The Beauty Myth back in the day, went to see her in lectures and book tours and what have you

But this... it’s not just about sex offending, Naomi. What about those old fashioned notions of privacy and dignity?

And why is it always, always always the bogs that we focus on? We could so easily solve that (men’s, women’s, mixed).

17thEarlOfOxford · 30/11/2020 07:17

Exactly SunsetBeetch - if "bathrooms" are completely safe because of these special laws that prevent molestation there, then transwomen should have no problem using the men's.

Unless I suppose this magical bubble of protection requires a critical mass of handbags and heels to operate, and the men's bogs are like a mass cage fight with urinals.

Winesalot · 30/11/2020 07:22

It is rather obvious that many people will it report incidences, look how many incidences of violence and rape go unreported now.

It isn’t just ‘being molested’ though is it. There are other considerations.

Last year I saw on YouTube (and cannot find it again), a clip of a transwoman chasing a group of schoolgirls out of the toilet and down the street, yelling at them. The girls are obviously scared.

In the toilets which this person used to change clothes, they came out of the cubicle and the girls were surprised and expressed concern. They went into the toilet dressed in typical trousers and shirt and came out in a dress iirc. I might add they were filming with their phone at the time. That male chased a group of school girls as they left the loo.

For expressing concern at a male being in the toilets filming on a phone.

And they posted it on YouTube as they felt victimized. But they really documented just how very aggressively male they really were.

Winesalot · 30/11/2020 07:24

it is rather obvious that many people will it report incidences

Damn. not report incidences

KatyaZamolodchikova · 30/11/2020 07:33

@RufustheSniggeringReindeer

Anyway there are already laws in place against you being molested by anyone in a bathroom

What.... specifically in bathrooms?

Theres an actual law which says you can’t be molested in a bathroom

Naomi ought to tell this to the two men that molested & sexually assaulted me in a women’s bathroom. Then she can tell all the people who told me not to do anything about it because it would be my word against the men, and it wouldn’t get me anywhere the same thing.

It makes me so so angry. Just because there are laws against something doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. Why should we wait for it to happen to do something about it? And we all know what the statistics are on prosecution against rapists. And we all know that women are reluctant to report or don’t report at all. Like me. Why make it even easier than it already is for predatory men to exert power over women, especially in what should be a safe space?

ZuttZeVootEeeVro · 30/11/2020 07:39

Seems strange to continue fighting to change what it is to be a woman and girl if she really believes that the only push back comes from bots.

She's not thinking too deeply if she can't see beyond the 'bathroom' issue. She doesn't seem to understand the implications of removing women as a class. Odd perspective for a feminist.

Passmeabottlemrjones · 30/11/2020 07:55

@Conniethesensible

What is a woman? What is a transwoman? At what point does a transwoman cease to be male? What are the criteria for that? If bathrooms are totally safe and no one would ever abuse anyone in a bathroom, why can't transwomen use the mens? Do you believe that toilets, prisons, refuges should just be mixed sex? Despite the studies which show that mixed sex changing rooms are more dangerous for women? What's your view on Barbie Kardashian?

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 30/11/2020 07:59

Can bots constitute a moral panic? Surely if we’re all just bots there are just a few people controlling us which is not a moral panic. Can’t have it both ways.

RealityNotEssentialism · 30/11/2020 08:05

If you find yourself getting worked up about this, just listen to her interview with Matthew Sweet, where he exposes her book for being built on her own inability to read historical documents. She still refuses to admit she was wrong on that one so I think the delusion and lack of self-awareness in her is strong and I’m not surprised she believes in this nonsense. It’s just another way to make money for her.

RealityNotEssentialism · 30/11/2020 08:08

[quote Passmeabottlemrjones]@Conniethesensible

What is a woman? What is a transwoman? At what point does a transwoman cease to be male? What are the criteria for that? If bathrooms are totally safe and no one would ever abuse anyone in a bathroom, why can't transwomen use the mens? Do you believe that toilets, prisons, refuges should just be mixed sex? Despite the studies which show that mixed sex changing rooms are more dangerous for women? What's your view on Barbie Kardashian?[/quote]
The answer to this is:

Trans women are WOMEN
Trans women are WOMEN
Trans women are WOMEN
Trans women are WOMEN
Trans women are WOMEN

There, I’m sure that answers all your questions

ThatIsNotMyUsername · 30/11/2020 08:09

Was that the interview on R4? I heard that one - and I’m not a historian but did study it and did/still do read history books - and I remember thinking ‘what the hell is she talking about???’ Then I wondered if she actually spoke to any historians or if her editors were having a laugh (yeah, let her run with it and see how far she goes).

SunsetBeetch · 30/11/2020 08:10

@TheCountessofFitzdotterel

Can bots constitute a moral panic? Surely if we’re all just bots there are just a few people controlling us which is not a moral panic. Can’t have it both ways.

Exactly. She makes no sense.

RealityNotEssentialism · 30/11/2020 08:14

With the bot thing, I am also a bit confused. I have seen people be accused of being bots on Twitter for disagreeing with someone, but they’ve had a whole conversation/debate with the person. Are bots that sophisticated that they can engage in a full-on debate and response to tweets? I know that all those ‘I make £50 an hour working from home’ or ‘I lost 30 lb in a week’ posts aren’t real people but surely those don’t tend to strike up actual conversations with people?

It seems that the criteria for being a bot are having fewer than 100 followers and being anonymous. Because of course it’s strange that women would be anonymous given how those who use their real names are treated.

nauticant · 30/11/2020 08:16

From the posts above here's the moment when Wolf's reputation for scholarship fell to pieces live on Radio 4:

twitter.com/thymetikon/status/1131702577878503425

The very last words of the recording are particularly ouch-y.

What went wrong there was that rather than asking what the odd term "death recorded" might mean, she went with what she wanted it to mean. I'd say the same kind of thing is happening in her current intervention.

RealityNotEssentialism · 30/11/2020 08:20

@ThatIsNotMyUsername

Was that the interview on R4? I heard that one - and I’m not a historian but did study it and did/still do read history books - and I remember thinking ‘what the hell is she talking about???’ Then I wondered if she actually spoke to any historians or if her editors were having a laugh (yeah, let her run with it and see how far she goes).

Yeah I think that’s the one. It builds up quite nicely. She’s talking about how loads of gay men were hanged in the 19th century and then MS is like ‘there’s just one point there that I want to ask you about’ and he mentions that all the ‘death recorded’ verdicts in the judgments that she has relied on actually mean that the sentence is NOT death but imprisonment and often for quite short terms. Also that the main cases she relies on actually are charges of molesting children, not homosexuality.

Her response is silence and then she’s like ‘ah, wow, yes well if that’s the case, I must check that out’. Embarrassingly, an explanation of what ‘death recorded’ means can be found on the Old Bailey archive website that she used to find these cases.

Then later, she doubled down and said that Matthew Sweet was trying to slander her and that her book was thoroughly researched and that her arguments were sound. Even though her argument was ‘lots of gay men were hanged in the 19th century’ and it was proven that wasn’t the case. She’s an embarrassment.

midgebabe · 30/11/2020 08:21

A true bot can't have a real conversation, even in a very restricted domain it can fall apart rapidly

It would not surprise me if there were people paid, like those scam call centre, to engage certain lines and shit stir