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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sunday Times today covering Keira's case

129 replies

McDuffy · 29/11/2020 06:48

Trans clinics face puberty-blocker ban for under-17s

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/dd78a746-317a-11eb-9ce2-e80c572086aa?shareToken=649822141870d95ec1c0ad2644c39940

OP posts:
sultanasofa · 29/11/2020 07:12

What a clear and balanced article. Thank you for the share token.

boatyardblues · 29/11/2020 07:24

How does reporting work in these cases? Does the legal team of the person bringing the case get a heads-up about the ruling which they can then use for advanced reporting on a “may happen” basis, so as not to pre-empt the official ruling? Or is this article speculative?

PearPickingPorky · 29/11/2020 07:30

The thought of Keira losing this case is too much.

NeurotrashWarrior · 29/11/2020 07:38

Thank you for this.

Does Sian Griffiths receive a lot of abuse for her reporting on these cases?

NeurotrashWarrior · 29/11/2020 07:41

Professor Michael Biggs, a professor of sociology at Oxford, said: “If Keira won, this would have an effect all around the English speaking world. It would be a very significant ruling.”

Huge case with huge implications.

Well done Keira for getting this far. Wishing her all the best this week.

boatyardblues · 29/11/2020 07:43

Well done Keira for getting this far. Wishing her all the best this week.

Absolutely.

NeurotrashWarrior · 29/11/2020 07:49

They way I see it in popular culture, few actually realise these drugs are unlicensed for GD. I like that the article spells it out. (It could have gone further in my opinion.)

The glamorisation and normalisation of their use on YouTube and in documentaries, including cbbc, has lulled many, including children, into thinking it's acceptable mainstream medicine.

NeurotrashWarrior · 29/11/2020 07:58

The third force is that the idea of a trans child has been engineered and normalised via pride and other 'social justice' vehicles (hate that phrase), especially the suicide trope, to be a child in great need of fixing and protecting.

MondayYogurt · 29/11/2020 08:06

Oh good. Morning walk to get the paper copy. Buying it far more often now.

Tootsweets23 · 29/11/2020 09:00

Sending Kiera and her team every thought and love this week. Her bravery is inspiring and I hope she knows how many of us are rooting for her.

I am deeply proud of the women of the UK who have fought this insanity. If the ruling goes Kiera's way, and how can it not, it will be noticed throughout the world, especially ambulance chasing lawyers who will spot a big opportunity for desisters to sue. Thus perhaps forcing a slow down/reverse in medicalising gender dysphoric kids.

highame · 29/11/2020 09:13

I think the article points out that whoever loses, there will be an appeal which does show the enormity of the case.

I wonder some and not all will be won? Whichever, this is one brave woman.

NeurotrashWarrior · 29/11/2020 09:19

I'd be interested to know if what's happening in Sweden will have any baring.

genderreport.ca/the-swedish-u-turn-on-gender-transitioning/

testing987654321 · 29/11/2020 09:31

I like this comment posted on the times - no child can truly understand the long-term effects of this treatment, they can't have the required life experience because they have never been an adult.

I hope Keira Bell wins this case. Either way, she has been remarkably courageous in taking the matter to court.

The Gillick test of capacity arose in the context of whether a girl aged under 16 could be prescribed contraception without parental consent. Whilst there are issues about a child under the age of consent using contraception, the most likely outcome is an avoided pregnancy, which most people would see as desirable & unlikely to affect the child’s entire life. Not so with hormones blockers. The evidence that they are reversible is poor. The Tavistock has never published in full its findings from its clinical trial on the matter, a clear breach of the conditions under which approval was given for the trial. The evidence which has been published indicates various physical harms, eg lack of bone density at a critical stage of growth, issues with cognitive development & an absence of reduction in mental distress. The vast majority who use hormone blockers move on to take cross sex hormones which clearly cause irreversible changes. The result is that a child taking hormone blockers is effectively placed on a conveyor to a life time of medical treatment chasing the fantasy of sex change, which can never be delivered as a biological reality.

In my mind, a child who has yet to reach full sexual maturity, and might not have had any sexual experience, cannot possibly have the capacity consent to such a course. It is literally life changing. To uncritically encourage a child down this route, especially without adequate assessment of the causes of their dysphoria & consideration of a range of options to alleviate it, is child abuse. All the more so in cases involving autism or apparent rapid onset gender dysphoria.

NeurotrashWarrior · 29/11/2020 09:35

Absolutely.

I do wonder if suicide stats / ongoing mh and depression will be mentioned post blockers? I have a hazy memory that the Tavistock had some data on that especially among females.

Littlestlily · 29/11/2020 09:38

NeurotrashWarrior

You’re completely correct, I had no idea that these were the drugs used,
I’ve had contact with this myself and was told bluntly my consent or opinion wasn’t required as DC was 16 .
Terrifying to think how things could have turned out, DC has now detransitioned and is happy and content with their gender .

EndemicPanda · 29/11/2020 09:38

How does reporting work in these cases? Does the legal team of the person bringing the case get a heads-up about the ruling which they can then use for advanced reporting on a “may happen” basis, so as not to pre-empt the official ruling? Or is this article speculative?

It's speculative. The lawyers involved in the case will get the judgment a few days in advance which they'll check for errors and provide comments back to the judges, but it will be "embargoed" and so it would be contempt of court to indicate to anyone else (including Kiera!) whether the case had been won or lost.

Igotmyholiday · 29/11/2020 09:43

The Times have been brilliant with their coverage, have at long last subscribed to them

TheGreatWave · 29/11/2020 10:05

It is good that there is no mincing of words around what the drug was originally intended for.

Whatwouldscullydo · 29/11/2020 10:09

Think there's a few more facts that could have been put in there. Bit otherwise yes a good article. And agree the mention of the intended purpose for the drugs

When you mention cancer the association with the medication is that its aggressive and horrific , will hopefully make people stop thinking its just some harmless pill.or jab and realise it might be a bit more serious

boatyardblues · 29/11/2020 10:11

Thank you Panda.

ContessaDiPulpo · 29/11/2020 10:28

Well that gives me something to chew fingernails over tomorrow! Desperately hoping for an outcome on Keira's side....

Datun · 29/11/2020 10:33

That's a good article.

I sincerely hope Keira is successful.

But, even if she isn't, a) she has recourse to a higher authority. And b) the 'newsworthiness' of the story will ensure it stays in the public eye.

One of the things that all these court cases really has brought home to me, is the fact that, ultimately, you are relying on one person, who may know fuck all, about jack shit, when it comes to a judgement on the subject in front of them.

But whichever way this goes, the publicity generated by it will only be a good thing.

OvaHere · 29/11/2020 10:58

Great article. I wish Keira all the best this week.

MerchedCymru · 29/11/2020 11:10

The importance of this case can't be overestimated, not least in the sunlight it brought to the Tavi approach and their internal censorship over safeguarding issues. The organisation is clearly not fit for purpose.

I can't see how Keira can possibly lose (but I thought that about Maya so what do I know). But good that there's an appeal process if so.

Heartfelt thanks Keira for your steadfast courage. Flowers

Datun · 29/11/2020 11:16

The importance of this case can't be overestimated, not least in the sunlight it brought to the Tavi approach and their internal censorship over safeguarding issues. The organisation is clearly not fit for purpose.

I how that comes out in the Keira case and isn't being held off for the safeguarding case.

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