Sunday Times today covering Keira's case

[McDuffy]

Trans clinics face puberty-blocker ban for under-17s

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/dd78a746-317a-11eb-9ce2-e80c572086aa?shareToken=649822141870d95ec1c0ad2644c39940

10:30am in court

twitter.com/Transgendertrd/status/1333362668808318977

Echoing everyone else saying well done to everyone involved, whatever happens.

@notassigned

The fox killer on twitter is saying that Keira's case is about fully-reversible puberty blockers and not the partially-reversible cross sex hormones that she regrets taking. I'd have thought a QC would be up to date with the facts - particularly this from the NHS website: "Little is known about the long-term side effects of hormone or puberty blockers in children with gender dysphoria. Although the Gender Identity Development Service (GIDS) advises this is a physically reversible treatment if stopped, it is not known what the psychological effects may be. It's also not known whether hormone blockers affect the development of the teenage brain or children's bones. Side effects may also include hot flushes, fatigue and mood alterations."

This is the text of an email from the Good Law project.

"Doctors and experts all over the world agree on the healthcare that I and other trans people need. But in this country, it is impossible to get access to this care.”

These are the words of a transgender teenager who is on a waiting list for the Gender Identity Development Service (GIDS) and may well have to wait for up to four years. The NHS commissions GIDS to provide specialist assessment, consultation and care for children and young people to help reduce the distressing feelings of a mismatch between their assigned sex and their gender identity.

The NHS has a legal obligation to see those referred to GIDS within 18 weeks. But the average waiting time is 18 months. In some shocking reports, young people are waiting for up to four years for afirst appointment. Not to get what the NHS describes as fully reversible puberty blockers but to begin the process of being assessed for eligibility for puberty blockers.

Children are losing the opportunity to be seen within a window in which they can secure effective treatment. They are, in practice, being denied access to treatments which are correlated with improved mental health and reduced suicide risk.

Whatever your views about the right treatment regime for young people with gender dysphoria, it can’t be right that they face lengthy waiting lists just to have a first appointment with a specialist. That’s why Good Law Project and one of the teenagers affectedhave written to NHS Englandto give them an opportunity to make a concrete and meaningful commitment to meet their statutory duty to young people. If they don’t, we will issue legal proceedings. We believe we have a very compelling legal case - and that is whywe are also publishing ourlegal advice, from leading specialists David Lock QC and Jason Pobjoy.

The bleak reality,the data shows, is that if you are transgender or non-binary in Britain today you will face daily injustice, discrimination, and violence. It’s time to push back.We, at Good Law Project, want to do what we can to help trans and non-binary people live their lives free from inequality. To that end, we have launched theLegal Defense Fund for Transgender lives.

The legal challenge to ensure NHS England meets its obligation to children and young people will be our first case of many to protect this most disadvantaged - and discriminated against - of communities.

Thank you,

Jolyon Maugham QC
Director of Good Law Project

He's really lost it - terrible to see language that would usually apply to serious injustice being misused in this way.

The bleak reality,the data shows, is that if you are transgender or non-binary in Britain today you will face daily injustice, discrimination, and violence. What data shows this? It's just not true.

Why is he telling people that the NHS describes the blockers as reversible?

The fox killer on twitter is saying that Keira's case is about fully-reversible puberty blockers and not the partially-reversible cross sex hormones that she regrets taking.

WTF are "fully reversible puberty blockers"?

Are they the ones dusted with glitter and sparkles by the gender fairy and, like, TOTALLY reversible, because Mermaids and Stonewall once said so. (Don't think they're actually saying that anymore though, if you look closely).

Is Jolyon in denial that blockers cause permanent changes / damage to the body and that he's been lied to by the trans lobby?

Do you want to tell him or shall I?...

Oh, hang on, he's blocked most of us and has declared he's not listening to middle aged women. He'll just have to keep on making a fool of himself then.

@PotholeParadies

Why is he telling people that the NHS describes the blockers as reversible?

Well, to be fair, GIDS, who are part of the NHS, do STILL describe them as reversible.

Stage 2: Physically reversible interventions (hormone blockers)

A child or young person who has already started puberty can be referred to our endocrinologists for possible hormone blocking treatment. Sometimes we might also ask our endocrinologists to help determine whether or not a child has started puberty already.

The blocker is a physically reversible intervention: if the young person stops taking the blocker their body will continue to develop as it was previously. However, we don’t know the full psychological effects of the blocker or whether it alters the course of adolescent brain development.

The blocker allows the young person time to consider their options and to continue to explore their developing gender identity before making decisions about irreversible forms of treatment. We are therefore only able to offer the blocker if the young person continues to meet with us for ongoing psychological exploration and support, as well as attending appointments with our doctors and clinical nurse specialists.

From this page: gids.nhs.uk/puberty-and-physical-intervention

The general NHS page on gender dysphoria, on the other hand, is more cautious and implies a possible divergence of views...

Little is known about the long-term side effects of hormone or puberty blockers in children with gender dysphoria.

Although the Gender Identity Development Service (GIDS) advises this is a physically reversible treatment if stopped, it is not known what the psychological effects may be.

www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/treatment/

Thank you. That makes sense of it. I thought it made no sense that a lawyer would cimmit himself that way.

@PotholeParadies

Thank you. That makes sense of it. I thought it made no sense that a lawyer would cimmit himself that way.

You really would think he'd be a bit more clued up thought wouldn't you.

But I guess if gender ideologues like Jolyon block anyone who offers a different world view or evidence that invites them to re-examine their beliefs, then it's not surprising they're not up to speed with how much they're being lied to by those they trust.

It's going to be one hell of a bump for a lot of people when the wheels finally come off this out of control wagon.

Tomorrow, I hope, is one step in the right direction.

But GIDS say the same as the general NHS page about puberty blockers:

However, we don’t know the full psychological effects of the blocker or whether it alters the course of adolescent brain development.

They don't describe them as fully reversible, only 'physically reversible', because they don't understand all the effects on the adolescent brain.

Jolyon seems to be alone now in describing them as 'fully reversible' now that everyone else is being a bit more cautious and admitting they don't know.

Has anyone ever reversed after starting blockers? Could they? I'd imagine especially for boys it would be hard to then become what they would have physically? God knows what it does to female reproductive systems.

Women who took it for early puberty report a lot of long term endocrine issues.

(I mean didn't go on to take the cross sex hormones.)

Has anyone ever reversed after starting blockers? Could they? I'd imagine especially for boys it would be hard to then become what they would have physically? God knows what it does to female reproductive systems

I was a late starter. 16. As much as I wasn't in a hurry to start my periods etc as, well, who would be, but I can tell you that being behind all your friends in that way, sucks. You worry something is wrong. You don't want to be the last. The only saving grace of any of it really is that it may suck but at least you are all in it together. If you don't have that its pretty sucky really.

I cant imagine what being left behind this way would feel like for someone who's really really struggling, you would not want to be going through it when all your mates are done.

No wonder they keep going.

Ugh. I am sick of years of reading all these healthy, undrugged, unsurgeried mature adult males advocating for speedy, permanent, potentially physically devastating invasive drug ‘treatments’ (often leading to permanent surgeries) for female children.

I say ‘treatment’ because actual medical treatments are supposed to make patients feel better and here there doesn’t seem to be evidence that these permanent invasive treatments actually do. The gender identity services themselves say they don’t keep in touch with their patients long term so we just don’t know. Research to find out more is blocked. Desisting and detransitioned people are ignored. They get in the way of the political narrative.

These are physical treatments given to female children and young people on the basis of emotional distress at living in a misogynistic society, or social contagion or a mental health condition, body dysmorphic disorder. Or a mix of those things.

So given this groundswell of distress in children, where is the equally passionate and well resourced advocacy for child and adolescent professional mental health support?

Professional, suportive, talking therapy which does not confirm gender stereotypes is clearly desperately needed, regardless of any adult gender politics around this. (And not just around gender issues- there seems to be a generalised crisis of unmet mental health need in children and young people, as anyone on a parenting board will know well)

It’s really sticking in my throat (having seen this in other contexts) how even in a medical and social public services setting, there can be so little actual care for the welfare of the child being paramount and such great adult self interest being served by putting children under particular pressures, and so little professional structure to help children and take the pressure off them.

Children should never be used for adult purposes, I thought we had that agreed as a society. Adults who love to smash down social and political boundaries and legal norms of consent and evidenced safeguarding norms can argue that out with the other adults. They should go and pick on someone their own size.

Does anyone know how James Caspian is getting on with his case? If Keira is successful today, I think there will be a lot more interest in and coverage of his case, as it shows how the research into long term outcomes and detransitioners is being stifled so clearly.

Also, 🤞 for Keira.

What, I was a very late starter too and concur. I also wonder if it made me more mentally naive too. Had no interest in a lot of the typical teen stuff my peers were into till later on.

I am sick of years of reading all these healthy, undrugged, unsurgeried mature adult males advocating for speedy, permanent, potentially physically devastating invasive drug ‘treatments’ (often leading to permanent surgeries) for female children.

And the adult males are arguing for them on the basis that the children shouldn't have to go through the irreversible changes of puberty, specifically, for boys, the lowering of the voice and growth of facial hair. These adult males ignore the fact that there are no equivalent irreversible changes for girls at puberty. The 'benefit' of taking these drugs before puberty is complete just isn't there for girls, and it's arguable that it's not there for boys, either, since genital surgery is more difficult if they haven't gone through puberty as two well publicised cases have shown us.

I was a late starter. 16. As much as I wasn't in a hurry to start my periods etc as, well, who would be, but I can tell you that being behind all your friends in that way, sucks. You worry something is wrong. You don't want to be the last. The only saving grace of any of it really is that it may suck but at least you are all in it together. If you don't have that its pretty sucky really.

I cant imagine what being left behind this way would feel like for someone who's really really struggling, you would not want to be going through it when all your mates are done.

Absolutely, if would increase the feeling of difference, of not being the same as those of your sex, of isolation from their experience because the drugs are isolating you.

I am sick of years of reading all these healthy, undrugged, unsurgeried mature adult males advocating for speedy, permanent, potentially physically devastating invasive drug ‘treatments’ (often leading to permanent surgeries) for female children.

Hear, hear. It's horrific. But whereas I think an awful lot of people on the TRA side are acting in bad faith, I think JM truly believes in this shit. He really believes he is on the side of virtue and goodness, and we are all evil bigots wanting to stop children having vital healthcare. That's why he is increasingly coming out with allegations that are wildly intemperate and borderline defamatory - stuff that is completely unprofessional from a barrister. I question the state of his mental health.

Fingers and toes crossed.

These adult males ignore the fact that there are no equivalent irreversible changes for girls at puberty.

Hear hear OldCrone.

I can't even begin to comprehend Keira losing. How could any court of law say that what happened to her was OK? That it is an acceptable medical practice? It wasn't OK and she is beyond brave to stand up and say so. My admiration for her is boundless.

The bleak reality,the data shows, is that if you are transgender or non-binary in Britain today you will face daily injustice, discrimination, and violence.

Imagine telling children and young people this? Effectively it's saying if you do not conform to stereotypes, you will face daily violence. I mean, it's hyperbole, clearly, but it seems to me to have the whiff of a cautionary tale about it.

If children/young people are being told so relentlessly that they're likely to be murdered, subject to violent attack, etc, they must be living in abject fear. It's horrible.

Backed up, of course, by the bullshit phantom of 'hate incidents' - which as we know could be anything at all, conjured up by anyone at all.

'Far harder to kill a phantom than a reality'

We really need level-headed information out there - the real figures and statistics just don't seem to get a look in, it's all wild stories, memes and urban myth. Evidence-based, that's all we need.

@Tootsweets23

I can't even begin to comprehend Keira losing. How could any court of law say that what happened to her was OK? That it is an acceptable medical practice? It wasn't OK and she is beyond brave to stand up and say so. My admiration for her is boundless.

Feel exactly the same and fearing the worst. But whatever happens, this isn't the end: there will be an appeal.

I'm ready to dig again.

Interview with Keira Bell by Raquel Rosario Sanchez.

womansplaceuk.org/2020/11/30/keira-bell-there-was-nothing-wrong-with-my-body/

The court ruling is expected at 10.30.