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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

La Leche League will support males (of the male sex) who wish to breastfeed.

493 replies

ExLLLeader · 27/11/2020 12:24

I picked this up on a recent Facebook post and could not quite believe it so made the following complaint/query and it is true. I was a La Leche League Leader for many years and am very upset to see how the organisation has lost its focus on the Mother and baby.

Complaint To The Board of Directors/Trustees

Dear Board members,

I was alarmed to see a post yesterday on the LLLGB Facebook page. The post in celebrating Transgender awareness week. The post links to the this page which states

LLLGB supports everyone who wants to breastfeed or chestfeed in reaching their goals. We do not discriminate based on sex, gender or gender identity.

And
Trans men, trans women and non-binary individuals may choose to breastfeed or chestfeed their babies.

And
Trans women can use a protocol similar to adoptive and other non-gestational mothers and stimulate their milk supply: it is called the Newman-Goldfarb protocol.

I have two issues I wish to complain about and they relate to the idea that males/Transwomen can breastfeed.

LLLGB should not be promoting the idea that males can induce lactation to feed a baby. There is no evidence to say this is safe, only an anecdotal example of a case where a doctor in the US enabled this to happen using off label drugs. The focus of the paper is mainly on the desires of the male bodied person and there is little interest in the impact on the baby and indeed the mother. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5779241/ . I would hope you have also considered the fetishisation of breastfeeding which does not only apply to men watching women, males lactating is also a paraphilia.

Why would LLLGB of all organisations choose not to discriminate on the basis of sex as it is perfectly entitled to under the equalities act? By saying these two statements there is nothing to stop a male wishing to come to women only meetings. Even I presume, before the baby is born. Im not sure if you would require that the male considered themselves to be a woman by performing gender stereotypes or not. (The male in the study had no surgery so still had a functioning penis.) Does this entitle a male who has breastfed to apply for Leadership?

Yours Sincerely
(ExLLLeader)

--------

Dear (ExLLLeader)
Thank you for taking the time to contact us with your concerns.
Your first concern is that there may be safety concerns relating to inducing lactation via drugs. The protocol used by Trans men is very similar to that used by women wishing to induce lactation. This treatment has an established treatment history. As lay breastfeeding counsellors, LLL Leaders role is to provide up to date and accurate information which individuals can use to inform their discussion with their healthcare provider.
Our groups have discretion to consider the needs of their communities when they decide who can attend. Some will by default be women only, however our support is and must always be open to anyone who needs support and information to breastfeed (which some individuals call chestfeeding). This would mean that a group would need to find a way to balance the needs of members who needed a single sex space, with the needs of an individual who needed chestfeeding support.
Eligibility for La Leche League Leadership is set by LLL International and can be found here: www.llli.org/get-involved/prerequisites/
As an organisation with a robust safeguarding culture, if we had concerns about an individual's motivation for seeking breastfeeding support we would take appropriate action to protect families and babies.
Best wishes (LLL Trustee)
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Dear (LLL Trustee)
Thank you for your reply, I have copied my complaint below as I was raising concerns about the male sex – i.e. Transwomen and breastfeeding and you have answered as if my concern is about female sexed i.e. trans men.

Best wishes (ExLLLeader)
_
Dear (ExLLLeader)
My apologies - I used the wrong word there. I should have said the protocol used by transwomen wishing to induce lactation is very similar to that used by women. The rest of my reply is intended to answer your points as raised.
(LLL Trustee)
___
Dear (LLL Trustee)
I am surprised to hear this. Would you therefor support a ‘Cis” man to breastfeed and provide the nutrients for a newborn baby?
-------
Not had an answer

OP posts:
SophocIestheFox · 27/11/2020 17:39

vulvaperson Flowers

Whatwouldscullydo · 27/11/2020 17:40

I swear that article makes me angrier and angrier the more I read it..

Wife recovering from major surgery and its all about them....

JKRisagryff · 27/11/2020 17:47

Yep scully maybe the mother would’ve had more success with breastfeeding if she had a supportive partner instead of someone thinking about their own needs.

Whatwouldscullydo · 27/11/2020 17:52

Breastfeeding also helps contract the uterus after the birth doesnt it?

So you could argue by taking that first feed they did in fact physically potentially hinder the recovery too?

Backbee · 27/11/2020 17:58

I would gather from the article that zero fucks were given about his wife.

PopperUppleton · 27/11/2020 17:59

Lambs die if they don't get first milk

Datun · 27/11/2020 18:02

[quote OhHolyJesus]Honestly, I don't know why we indulge this self absorbed bullshit

Neither do I, though I guess we should have seen it coming with the whole girl dick / lady cock business.

Trans women are women.

All breasts are breasts.

All breastmilk is milk.

Fetishising the feeding of newborn babies, babies who cannot consent and suffer from a lack of nutrition from not having their mother's milk, at a time they need it most and are at their most defenceless...and to see LLL and others support this, including mothers who have done it and understand it?

I never thought I'd see it. I really wish I hadn't.

Not a fetish? Damn right it is.
www.thestranger.com/queer-issue-2017/2017/06/21/25225867/my-first-time-breastfeeding-my-daughter[/quote]
Are there any other narratives of fathers breastfeeding their babies that don't come across like that, by any chance?

Do you think that person realises?

I could feel my brain rewiring, creating pathways that would permanently connect me to my child. (And yeah, I kind of got off on it. Don't judge.)

Oh dear. 'Getting off' on something physical with your child and expecting it to create a 'permanent connection'?

Imagine the most electric thing a partner has ever done to you, then multiply it by 10.

Oh my.

I might have been my daughter's sperm donor, but breastfeeding was how I knew I was going to be a mom. It validated my womanhood as much as any surgery ever could.

Got it.

The failure of the breastfeeding plan my wife and I had so carefully constructed was disappointing.

No shit.

MandosHatHair · 27/11/2020 18:06

It's such a shame, LLLGB is one of the charities I donate to instead of sending Christmas cards as thier helpline was great when I was struggling to feed DS2. Not this year though, I don't want a single penny of my money being used to promote this shit. Women get so little help to breastfeed as it is, without men up the resources.

Whatwouldscullydo · 27/11/2020 18:09

I would gather from the article that zero fucks were given about his wife

A daily diary would be interesting to see. Wonder how the night feeds played out...

Imagine recovering from surgery and then fighting with your partner for the last breast pads...

Winesalot · 27/11/2020 18:09

Imagine the most electric thing a partner has ever done to you, then multiply it by 10.

Maybe a male poster can explain to us how this is focusing on the needs of the child??? I have seen this mentioned in each recount of male breastfeeding, so please do not hand wave this instance as being unique.

MandosHatHair · 27/11/2020 18:11

That article, I couldn't read past (And yeah, I kind of got off on it. Don't judge.)

That poor baby Sad

Whatwouldscullydo · 27/11/2020 18:18

I'll put a fiver on problematic source wine

Anotheruser02 · 27/11/2020 18:29

That article is horrible.

CharlieParley · 27/11/2020 18:33

From your linked paper, jj1968:

Transgender women experience muted Tanner stages. There is an initial development of a subareolar breast bud at 3–6 months followed by further enlargement and development of the breast. Maximal breast growth is realized at 2–3 years in our experience. Figure 1 shows heterogeneous breast tissue in a mammogram from a transgender woman treated with cross-sex hormones. Breast size and tissue composition following estrogen treatment varies for each individual. [9•] Transgender women are unlikely to reach Tanner stage 5 [6] The degree of breast development seems to be independent of type and dose of hormone treatment.

The authors and your quote also refer to "pseudo lactation", which means the production of fluid (usually a milky discharge) from the nipples unconnected to the milk produced in breastfeeding. This is normally referred to as galactorrhea and although more common in women and girls, can happen in men and boys. Where this occurs naturally in males, it is always pathological and the cause must be investigated. It can also be a side effect of various medications.

What it is not is proof that the individual in question has mature breast tissue capable of feeding a baby.

I would highly recommend reading up on lactogenesis (what changes in the breast are necessary so that we can feed a baby). Given that completed puberty is necessary, that the brain (specifically the pituitary gland) sends out the signals stimulating the maturation of breast tissue during pregnancy and that breast development is only complete after pregnancy and labour, I would need to see actual evidence before I will ever believe that a male can breastfeed. The paper I have seen so far does not even suggest that the male in question reached stage 2 of lactogenesis (i.e. copious milk production). And that's before we even get to the lack of any data provided about nursing after the birth of the child.

Here is an informative science paper explaining the physiological process of lactogenesis:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK499981/

As the onset of lactation involves sensitive changes to progesterone, insulin, cortisol and prolactin, thyroid hormones, hormones coming from the placenta, oxytocin and estradiol, it can prove difficult to induce lactation in females who have never been pregnant. Not all women seeking to induce lactation in this way succeed, but many do. The numbers who induce lactation AND produce milk levels similar to women nursing after childbirth is much smaller though.

However, because the physiological changes to a female's breast tissue remain after weaning, it is much easier to induce (re)lactation in cases where the woman has been pregnant before, with the best success rates for those who have nursed previously.

And here for instance is a study of the composition of the breastmilk produced by non-pregnant women:

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25288606/

Please note in both study subjects the maximum amounts produced daily did not amount to even one feed. Milk composition was markedly different to that produced by mothers after childbirth (but not in a way harmful to the baby), but they did not analyse the milk for levels of the artificial hormones the women took to induce lactation.

As the authors note, the composition of breastmilk after childbirth has been studied in detail, as has the effect of hormones and medication on the same. There is however very little or no data on the effect of hormones and medication on the milk produced after induced lactation (as the authors point out, given the small amount of milk produced, changes in composition may happen) and on the overall composition of the milk. That means we cannot simply assert that because levels are not harmful in women who are nursing after childbirth and in those who establish a normal supply with the help of drugs after childbirth, the levels will also be safe in women who have not given birth where the amount of milk produced may be significantly smaller.

As such analyses are necessary to assess possible negative impacts on the growing child, the authors urge that more studies like theirs should be undertaken in cases of lactation induced without pregnancy.

Consequently, it would also be the responsible course of action to analyse the milk - if any - produced by males inducing lactation in the same manner that these other studies have done. Until I see an expressed willingness to undergo such scientific analysis by these males and their doctors, with an independent lab comparing samples on at least a weekly basis, I must assume that the wellbeing of the child is not the primary motivation behind inducing lactation in such cases.

(There is in my view nothing wrong with adoptive mothers seeking to induce lactation because they wish to experience nursing in all its benefits for mother AND child, but the fact that breastmilk is considered the best way to feed a baby is usually the driving factor in attempting it.)

Cailleach1 · 27/11/2020 18:39

I developed an illness whilst at the later stages of breastfeeding. I rang LLL and they cautioned against continuing to breastfeed. The effects (of medication I had to go on) on and in my milk were not known. It was something like that. Now my baby at the time was old enough to be weaned anyway, but I was always very careful about taking medicine or anything whilst breastfeeding. I went back to the doctor once when they prescribed something which said not suitable for breastfeeding mothers on the container and they changed the prescription. Despite them knowing I was breastfeeding a new baby in the first place!

Do LLL now disregard any caution about breastfeeding in cases where the effects (and in such doses) of medications you are taking on the baby are unknown? Over and above any medication taken by women to induce liquid from the nipples, Transwomen may also be on a cocktail of other medication. Do LLL now look the other way if the effects of such medication like Testosterone suppressants and artificial cross sex hormones taken by males are unknown? Is it just women they caution about taking medication which may end up in their milk if the effects are unknown?

Indeed if any male approaches them who isn't on the cocktail of medication, are they also supporting males who don't take artificial cross sex hormones or testosterone suppressants into their body to breastfeed too? If not, why not? Males without the extra cocktail of testosterone suppressants or taking female hormones would be producing something a bit safer surely. They'd only be taking the medication to artificially induce liquid production from their nipples.

The colostrum is first, then your milk changes to suit your infant as they develop. You impart your antibodies to keep them safe. What is being produced when someone takes medication to produce a liquid. What is that liquid and what would it correspond to anything a mother produces naturally at any stage?

scentedgeranium · 27/11/2020 18:39

Oooof @Datun that is a chilling read. Cake and eating it. Not content with donating sperm she also wants to breast feed?!
Also what's this nonsense about take a few days for milk to come in? That's NORMAL! First it's colostrum, then the milk proper comes in (and boy do you feel it!!). No understanding beyond me me me me

NiceGerbil · 27/11/2020 18:41

Just catching up but I'm fascinated to see JJ wading into this one... Confused

I hope this thread stands.

I mean the usual comments are tone deaf enough but this is amazing.

Why would a tw want to bf?
The same as any other woman.

But most women don't actually want to breastfeed. In the same way they'd want to say. Eat a lovely roast dinner or spend a couple of hours doing their hobby.

The reason the vast vast vast majority of women breastfeed is because they have carried a baby, given birth, and the baby needs feeding and breast milk is good for them.

Some women like it some hate it but do it anyway. Many have real problems getting to grips with it. It's a very highly charged area made even worse by historical (and apparently current) actions of baby milk companies, conflicting ideas about freedom and a whole bunch of other stuff.

Go and read some breastfeeding threads fgs!

The comments here are Grin

So no the general reason for a tw wanting to bf will be in no way related to the reasons that pretty much all women who bf, do so.

Going to read the rest now!

WhataFarce76 · 27/11/2020 18:44

In early breastfeeding colostrum is vitally important to pass on antibodies to protect the newborn baby. I'm not sure that drug induced 'milk' from a person who has not gestated the baby themselves would have the right antibodies that the baby would need.
Is there nothing that is specific to women now? I'm sure the day will come when uterine transplants will be the next best thing.
Womans breasts were designed to make and provide milk. Men's were not.

A woman choses to breastfeed for lots of reasons. It releases oxytocin which contracts the uterus down to the pre-pregnant size so helps in the post partum period. Its a bonding experience. It provides essential food and nutrients as well as antibodies for the baby.
It comforts the baby to be so close to the smell and feel of the mother who has grown it for the last 9 months. It reduces risk of breast/ovarian cancers.
Men would not feel the need to have to do most of these things. Being men.

Cailleach1 · 27/11/2020 18:49

Charlie, very interesting post from you.

HecatesCats · 27/11/2020 18:53

Yes, thank you Charlie

gardenbird48 · 27/11/2020 18:56

I can’t remember where I saw it recently but apparently in America a breast feeding woman brought a sex discrimination case against her employers and part of their defence cited that ‘as men can breastfeed too’ it wasn’t sex discrimination.

I’m not sure whether America has pregnancy/maternity as a pc which would presumably cover it in the uk and I’m not sure of the outcome (I’ll try and dig it out) but it could set a worrying precedent.

NiceGerbil · 27/11/2020 18:57

My sodding boobs started leaking at 6 months. I had no idea that could happen. We were on holiday and I woke up and thought oh what? I've pissed myself? But it's in the wrong place in the bed..

Cue me and DH for about 10 mins saying hmmm maybe it's dribble? We definitely didn't have sex... Before the penny dropped.

So breast pads from then Sad And she didn't come till 42+2 and even then it was induced.... Sigh.

Women who have been through all this know stuff. Yes women can become mothers by other means but doing it the old fashioned way is a massively involved process, often uncomfortable, freaky, difficult etc etc

Men have ALWAYS minimised all of this. And oh look. Now they want to pick up the bits they fancy. Without the shit bits...

The point that most tw will presumably be getting a baby the old fashioned way- PIV with a female partner who has functional female breasts and has actually given birth etc. Is non trivial. Very much non trivial.

It's just like a sort of pick n mix of female experience really. While the women who produce the babies have, as with all the rest of our sex based stuff, little to no choice.

Cailleach1 · 27/11/2020 18:58

Would I be right in saying that LLL are supporting babies being fed something which may have artificial chemicals with effects unknown in it. And, something which has not even been assessed as to it's nutritional value in the first place?

That would be like the baby doesn't matter and is only incidental to the person who wants to go through the ritual of breastfeeding.

Winesalot · 27/11/2020 18:59

Here you are Gardenbird.

www.aclu.org/blog/speakeasy/firing-mom-because-shes-breastfeeding-sex-discrimination

Interesting this is ACLU.

Whatwouldscullydo · 27/11/2020 19:00

Is there nothing that is specific to women now? I'm sure the day will come when uterine transplants will be the next best thing

We still struggle to maintain pregnancies in women, the outcomes for the babies, where we keep women on ventilators for months, well its not usually that successful. We will never be accept to chemically create everything that our female bodies do. There are instincts and chemical reactions and sensory factors etc that just can't he replicated artificially kn a female body let alone a male body.

If ever there was Proof that men really do not see beyond one or 2 basic functions this is it. Breasts are not just lumps of flesh on our chest. Babies don't just grow in a uterus with nothing else going on...