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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Hermes Delivery Driver Sexual Harassment

114 replies

Seatime · 27/11/2020 11:34

I'm furious, my adult daughter received a delivery today from Hermes. The delivery driver said to her 'Sexy Slippers'. My daughter did not want a sexual comment on her clothing from man 20 years older than her. I know it may sound unharmful but it was not, but my daughter felt humiliated, embarrassed and violated. She looked at her slippers afterwards as something dirty. I believe it was his intention to be creepy and shit on her experience as she was visibly happy opening the door, l was on video chat with her. She had really looked forward to the delivery because of lockdown and she had just recovered from covid. Women do not have to go outside these days to be sexually harrased. Has anyone else had sexual harrasment from delivery drivers?

OP posts:
CurrentEvents · 02/12/2020 13:51

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the request of the OP.

Topseyt · 02/12/2020 13:55

@Wellthatwassilly

Wayyyyyy over-reaction! He said her slippers were sexy, he didnt say she was sexy.

This is crazy!!

Of course it isn't an overreaction. There was no need for him to have commented on anything that she was wearing, let alone call her slippers sexy. It was weird and creepy.

I'd be willing to bet that if the driver had been delivering to a strapping tall man who was built like a brick shit house he wouldn't have made any such comment.

Don't listen to the apologists on here, OP. Complain, or encourage/help your DD to do so. Women should not have to put up with this twattery and if we don't try to stamp it out it will just continue unchecked.

thisisnot · 02/12/2020 14:23

@CurrentEvents

Gross. And so common. My 13 year old DD took the post from the postman recently as I was making pastry and my hands were covered. She took a little while to get to the door as she's got a neurological condition so she's a bit shaky. As she took the parcel, he said "ooh, you were worth the wait. I'll look forward to coming back tomorrow to see your beautiful self. Awwww, no need to tremble!" And just as I was walking to the door with my WhatTheFuck? all ready, he dashed off across the garden and through the bushes! Heard the van disappear really fast. I called and made a complaint and I've not seen him again.
This is disgusting. So sad to hear that.
madcatladyforever · 02/12/2020 14:28

I would put a complaint in right away. This is not harmless and some men don't seem to understand that women are NOT interested to know whether randoms find them sexy or not. They need to learn the hard way unfortunately via a solid complaint.

WattleOn · 03/12/2020 05:34

@AmandaHoldensLips

Fuck sake. When will men learn? It's not that bloody difficult.

Are you likely to be seeing him again? I find the firm statement DO NOT SAY ANYTHING TO A WOMAN THAT YOU WOULDN'T WANT SAID TO YOU BY A 6'4" MAN YOU'RE SHARING A PRISON CELL WITH sometimes helps them understand.

Do you have a contact number for him? I'd be phoning him directly and having a word.

I’ve got to remember that line. It gets the point across very effectively, doesn’t it?
WattleOn · 03/12/2020 05:39

@dayoftheclownfish

Despite some of the unfounded accusations of excusing the driver's behaviour (which literally everyone on here accepts was bad), this is an interesting thread because it just shows how pervasive the issue of unwanted, creepy, but not illegal, male behaviour is, when you are just a woman going about your business in public space. I'm fascinated to hear that it doesn't matter whether you're a teenager or in middle age, you still get that sort of behaviour, and it creates fear, intimidation, worry.

I do think there is something systematic about it that is designed to prevent our sex from achieving a certain uninterrupted flow in our daily lives. I love being in public, walking, going around on my bike, having random conversations, observing what's around me, and I wonder whether these sorts of intimidating interactions are meant to put us in our place and to remind us that we can never be in charge.

Sorry, this is starting to sound a bit tin-foily - is it maybe just a feature of human nature that some people are out to dominate and intimidate others, and men are using inappropriate sexualised behaviour to put women in their place because they know it works?

I don’t think this is tinfoily. Like that word, BTW. I’ve been thinking similar myself. I’m now in my forties and I think that it is partly because I have changed and partly because the world had changed.
ClaireP20 · 03/12/2020 05:47

This actually happens to me quite alot. Only last week the Hermes driver made a comment about my hair 'I won't ask what you've been doing...or who with..haha'.

I think I must have a look about me...weirdos.

ClaireP20 · 03/12/2020 05:53

@dayoftheclownfish

I hear you, OP, and that's why I think free speech is important. If we only tell the stories we know will receive 100% agreement, we'll have fewer stories to tell.

As for educating men not to harass, at a more basic level, I think we have to educate men to see women as full human beings, and ends in themselves. We've come a long way since only a couple of generations ago but have far to go yet.

I've got a story about unwanted attention too: had to have my car fixed once and when I picked it up, the ashtray (which had been disgusting before, I was a heavy smoker) was spotless, and there was a note with a number and name on it, too. Was that kind of sweet or kind of creepy? I still don't know.

I think that was a but sweet AND a bit creepy. I've also had numbers left on my windscreen and (recently) a man in tesco said I had dropped something and handed me his cars with a wink! I am a middle aged woman with a fat arse..honestly they must be desperate!
TheBitchOfTheVicar · 03/12/2020 06:02

I had somethung solar with a Tesco driver, nothing too racy but made me uncomfortable in my own kitchen. So I reported him. Man on the other end of the phone asked me to extend Tesco's apologies to my husband, of all things!! I challenged him, but he had no idea what I was talking about, so I reported him too.

Thing is, these two men will likely as not do nothing to challenge their own thinking about these sorts of things, just behave differently so as not to get told off again.

ALLIS0N · 03/12/2020 07:11

I do think there is something systematic about it that is designed to prevent our sex from achieving a certain uninterrupted flow in our daily lives. I love being in public, walking, going around on my bike, having random conversations, observing what's around me, and I wonder whether these sorts of intimidating interactions are meant to put us in our place and to remind us that we can never be in charge

Sorry, this is starting to sound a bit tin-foily - is it maybe just a feature of human nature that some people are out to dominate and intimidate others, and men are using inappropriate sexualised behaviour to put women in their place because they know it works?

Excellent point.

I agree that it’s systemic. It’s not about women - our age, appearance, clothes, hairstyle. It’s about men and their attitudes and values.

I agree they think that the public domaine is theirs and that we are only there because they allow us to be - if we look and act in a certain way that is pleasing to them. Hence all all “ smile / cheer up love “ comments. Our faces have to be arranged in a certain way that they approve of, otherwise we shouldn’t be out in public.

Hence the harassment experienced by women out running - we don’t have the right to be sweaty or wear non sexy running gear - we need always to be attractive to men, always putting them and their wishes first in our lives. That’s why so few women go out running alone - they are fed up of the harassment.

But it’s not just in public - This thread is about women in their own homes. They still have to be focussed on random men’s needs for affirmation and always remember their primary role in life as eye candy.

Do you thing that men relaxing at home in old clothes / painting the ceiling worry about answering the door to a delivery driver in case he makes comments about their appearance or what’s in their parcel ? I’m pretty sure they don’t.

BTW I am speaking about men as a class , not your Nigel, I’m sure he’s lovely.

NiceGerbil · 03/12/2020 08:39

The reason the daughter probably reacted quite strongly is because she's opened the front door of her house to this bloke and so having a sexual comment makes you feel more vulnerable.

On the street or in the pub you can walk away/ go into s shop/ there are probably people around if he presses any further.

A bloke you don't know on your doorstep saying something is s big officer because you never know quite where these things are heading so there's more of that split second of oh fuck and I in danger during the interaction.

Autumnblooms · 03/12/2020 08:59

It depends what the slippers look like as it sounds like he was being sarcastic. Large or cartoon slippers are not sexy and that’s the point, they are instead funny.

If they were garish I’d say sexy slippers to a male or female, big or small build.

It’s a tad worrying she is feeling violated about comments on her slippers.

Maybe it’s a regional thing? Most people I know would see this as him taking the piss, not harassing or trying to be hurtful.

Pollypocket89 · 03/12/2020 09:12

Bluntness and I said that pages back, Autumnblooms but it went unanswered

NiceGerbil · 03/12/2020 09:45

Well she was there and we weren't so if she felt it was creepy and out of order then it probably was.

The automatic reaction to tell women and girls not to make a fuss is really damaging.

When I was a girl we never mentioned anything that happened with street weirdos etc for this reason.

You're supposed not to over react, make a fuss etc.

In this case daughter goes to mum days essentially this bloke freaked me out.

Mum says don't be so silly/ he was joking/ you're over reacting / you need to learn how to put up with this stuff/ why didn't you say X/ why not just smile he was just lonely and bored/ etc etc etc etc etc

3inthefuckingmorning · 03/12/2020 09:56

Sounds like he was taking the piss out of her to me. Which needs a complaint, but I don't think she needs to report it as sexual harassment. How old is your daughter?

QuentinWinters · 03/12/2020 10:04

It depends what the slippers look like as it sounds like he was being sarcastic. Large or cartoon slippers are not sexy and that’s the point, they are instead funny.
He doesn't know her, its her home, he has no business at all saying anything personal to her, whether or not it's a "joke".
Referring to the sexiness of the slippers is highly inappropriate. Why should his opinion of them being sexy (or not) be something he shares?
It is harassment, he shouldn't be taking the piss out of customers. I would complain, sod this "ooooh, feeling violated is worrying....". He was inappropriate and she does feel like that, he needs to be told to consider the impact of his "jokes"

dayoftheclownfish · 03/12/2020 10:34

Quick point about whether the doorstep is private or public: it sort of is both - which is why courteous and respectful behaviour is even more important! You're coming to someone's home, after all ... but maybe because it's this in-between place, it is particularly open to human interactions going very wrong.

As for existing in public space, NAMALT and so on, and I have plenty of perfectly pleasant interactions with the opposite sex, just on a human level, but there is that reservoir of male entitlement that means some men, in some contexts, feel they can impress on a woman that she is only allowed to share that space because of male benevolence.

That's why I find the accounts of transmen very interesting, because they often report on how different it is to navigate public space if you are perceived as male. As a woman, being relatively tall, I think, also helps. And there must be other factors that come in, such as whether you're in a wealthy or poor area, how ethnically and racially mixed the environment is etc., etc.

Seatime · 03/12/2020 11:33

I agree, as said above, it is systematic. Women navigate the world under the male gaze. We are supposed to be attractive, accomodating and to prioritise men's egos at all times. Looking at the wider societal context in which we women live. I have been questioning for the past few years, are women actually allowed to enjoy themselves in society? Such as, going out for a coffee and danish, collecting a parcel, buying a book, dancing on a night out, walking around a shopping area, making myself small on public transport because a bloke is manspreading. These are normal things, that a woman should be able to do without being harassed. ln these contexts l have experienced a range of controls from men, ranging from sexual assault, blocking my path, comments to go elsewhere, the head to toe body scan, accompanied by the look of simultaneous, invitation and threat. I'm a middle aged woman, usually covered from head to foot, not that it matters what lm wearing. I had 3 of these incidents yesterday.
This particular thread, is about a young woman, dealing with a man by herself, at her home and the man 20 years her senior crossing a social boundary into sexual innuendo.
To address the issue of, if the slippers were novelty ones. I have resisted this as, it doesn't matter what she was wearing. It's not about her. She did and has done nothing wrong, that's the whole point of this argument.
If you think his comment was innocent and bants, then you would think that it is OK to say to an older woman at a bus stop who was wearing a colourful scarf, "Sexy scarf". If you think the driver's comment was normal, then you could go into a store and say to a retail assistant, 20 years your junior, who was wearing a Christmas jumper and say "Sexy jumper". It sounds wrong, because it is wrong. The context in which it might be normal may be, if your lover was wearing flannel pyjamas with rudolf heads on, then you might say, "sexy pjs", because you are in the context of an intimate relationship. It suggests sex. You wouldn't say, "Sexy dressing gown" to a child would you? because, it's adult content.
That societal barrier that we have to protect each other is removed when lovers agree to consent to that. As with all harassment, it is very simple, it's about consent, the driver broke a social code and entered the intimate realm without her consent.
The poster above, 'Current Events' whose 13 year old daughter, with a neurological condition, who was harassed by the postman, that was absolutely disgusting behaviour from him, and is in the category of child abuse. No, l'm not clutching my pearls.
The question in the original post was, has anyone been harassed by a delivery man? There is enough evidence on this thread, to have found that there is a pattern of harassment by delivery drivers against women and girls, on their own at their doorsteps. That's what the question sought to prove. Mission accomplished, unfortunately. This is totally unacceptable. We need to speak out about this. Thank you to the people who have shared their stories. Thank you to the supportive voices. I have heard very astute comments, it is a privilege to participate in this debate. Stand up together sisters, to create a world that has dignity, liberation and hope for our daughters and the women we love.

OP posts:
PatriciaPerch · 03/12/2020 11:44

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Iamagree · 03/12/2020 12:04

@Seatime

I agree, as said above, it is systematic. Women navigate the world under the male gaze. We are supposed to be attractive, accomodating and to prioritise men's egos at all times. Looking at the wider societal context in which we women live. I have been questioning for the past few years, are women actually allowed to enjoy themselves in society? Such as, going out for a coffee and danish, collecting a parcel, buying a book, dancing on a night out, walking around a shopping area, making myself small on public transport because a bloke is manspreading. These are normal things, that a woman should be able to do without being harassed. ln these contexts l have experienced a range of controls from men, ranging from sexual assault, blocking my path, comments to go elsewhere, the head to toe body scan, accompanied by the look of simultaneous, invitation and threat. I'm a middle aged woman, usually covered from head to foot, not that it matters what lm wearing. I had 3 of these incidents yesterday. This particular thread, is about a young woman, dealing with a man by herself, at her home and the man 20 years her senior crossing a social boundary into sexual innuendo. To address the issue of, if the slippers were novelty ones. I have resisted this as, it doesn't matter what she was wearing. It's not about her. She did and has done nothing wrong, that's the whole point of this argument. If you think his comment was innocent and bants, then you would think that it is OK to say to an older woman at a bus stop who was wearing a colourful scarf, "Sexy scarf". If you think the driver's comment was normal, then you could go into a store and say to a retail assistant, 20 years your junior, who was wearing a Christmas jumper and say "Sexy jumper". It sounds wrong, because it is wrong. The context in which it might be normal may be, if your lover was wearing flannel pyjamas with rudolf heads on, then you might say, "sexy pjs", because you are in the context of an intimate relationship. It suggests sex. You wouldn't say, "Sexy dressing gown" to a child would you? because, it's adult content. That societal barrier that we have to protect each other is removed when lovers agree to consent to that. As with all harassment, it is very simple, it's about consent, the driver broke a social code and entered the intimate realm without her consent. The poster above, 'Current Events' whose 13 year old daughter, with a neurological condition, who was harassed by the postman, that was absolutely disgusting behaviour from him, and is in the category of child abuse. No, l'm not clutching my pearls. The question in the original post was, has anyone been harassed by a delivery man? There is enough evidence on this thread, to have found that there is a pattern of harassment by delivery drivers against women and girls, on their own at their doorsteps. That's what the question sought to prove. Mission accomplished, unfortunately. This is totally unacceptable. We need to speak out about this. Thank you to the people who have shared their stories. Thank you to the supportive voices. I have heard very astute comments, it is a privilege to participate in this debate. Stand up together sisters, to create a world that has dignity, liberation and hope for our daughters and the women we love.
Yes, well said Seatime. I'm old enough and confident enough to stop them dead with a cold stare and ask them "I beg your pardon?" but sadly that's after years of putting up with it as a younger woman. The bloke in the street who looks me up and down and growls says "all right darling" is NOT being friendly. If he was, he'd say hello when I'm with my DH - he's doing it because I'm on my own and he (subconsciously maybe) sees the street as "his" space, or at least as a space he has to be seen to dominate. He's reminding me of that. (Except I stop and ask him why he called me darling when he doesn't know me, and I tell him politely but firmly it's not OK and I'm not his "darling")
Seatime · 03/12/2020 12:05

Thank you for sharing 'Patricia Perch', l am so sorry that your daughter experienced that abuse.
There are men who systematically abuse women and girls. There are women and girls who are particularly vulnerable. There are men who think women and girls are sexual objects. It is this attitude which is the problem. There is a spectrum, from sexual innuendo which wears women down, to violent sexual assault. All this gender based harassment needs to be called out and stopped. Men need to learn that women are not sex dolls for their selfish pleasure.

OP posts:
dayoftheclownfish · 03/12/2020 13:26

I am with you on the diagnosis but not necessarily on the solution. “Men need to be educated on ...” yes, but how? By whom? How do you actually change an attitude, make someone think? This is extremely difficult.

I’ll share another anecdote. When I was a teenager, a friend and I (both with short hair) were accosted on public transport by a big burly bloke who said, aggressively, “hey, are you two lesbians?” (So, you could say, sexualised harassment.)

I was very intimidated and torn between either saying nothing or “shut up, idiot” (he clearly wanted a confrontation) but my wise friend just looked at him, smiled and said slowly and calmly “and what if it were so ...?”

He was dumbstruck and you could almost see those grey cells in his brain working. He didn’t know what to say. It was so effective, I still admire her for it.

QuentinWinters · 03/12/2020 14:49

"Men need to be educated on ...” yes, but how? By whom? How do you actually change an attitude, make someone think? This is extremely difficult.
Exactly why it should be reported. His company telling him this is not acceptable and why should make him (and those around him) think twice about displaying those attitudes.
The responsible constructor (?) scheme did a lot to reduce wolf whistling/cancelling by builders - women knew they could report it, builders knew it wasn't acceptable and could risk their job.
The underlying attitudes will change over time if the behaviour is made unacceptable. At the moment there is too much acceptance/explaining away, as illustrated by some posters on this thread.

QuentinWinters · 03/12/2020 14:50

Catcalling not cancelling. Grrr

NiceGerbil · 03/12/2020 17:01

It's not about education.

Men have been told for decades at least that we don't like it.

And many of them take active pleasure in the confused discomfort caused especially in older girls and younger women. At my age it's happened so much it's just wallpaper and if course it tails off when you get older. I'd say 13-28 ish was worst for me.