Gay men's magazine bullied into grovelling

[aliasundercover]

twitter.com/BoyzMagazine/status/1332052779871965186

Looks like they're gunning for gay men now. Anything other than complete agreement is no good.

Readers here will be used to this sort of insanity:
twitter.com/robholley/status/1332054419337334789
I wonder if it will wake up those who have not seen it before?

British pupils are turning to vloggers to learn about topics including sex toys, porn and female masturbation because they are not covered sufficiently by teachers, or are overlooked completely, according to sex education charity Brook.

The funny thing is - before youtube was a thing, children were not turning to this to learn about sex toys because of the woeful gaps in their school education. When you're speaking to a generation of people who grew up before the internet, you cannot expect them to believe that youtube is providing a necessary service that schools are lacking - because they never had this themselves and have still grown up to be sexually active and happy with it. It isn't them that checked into the hospital with an anal prolapse as a teenage girl. It is the girls of this generation living through that.

It's almost like children are watching this sex content because it is there, not because they actually need it.

It's almost like ... they're being groomed.

"exploring the nature of healthy respectful intimate relationships, not a list of sexual techniques."

FFS yes this.

@jj1968 yes I believe there are boundaries in terms of what schools teach. I mean sure, young people will go on YouTube and watch stuff like that but in my day before YouTube, we had problem pages of magazines where we asked that.
Do you think the average 14 year old wants to discuss fetish-porn, rimming and butt-plugs with his/her teacher? Really? Because I am guessing kids would be pretty fucking mortified at that. PHSE was painful enough as it was, let alone this crap that’s proposed. Of course schools aren’t going to teach about every single sexual quirk a person might have. That’s not their job.

Expecting teachers to groom children is repulsive. Also why is the role of parents in sex education of their children not being considered here

And thank you to ovahere for posting the WPUK Statements. Another group that has been bullied in the certain belief that of course far right funds are being donated to them.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4092218-WPUK-have-released-a-financial-statement-showing-money-received-by-source-and-how-it-is-spent

If it walks like an underfunded, largely volunteer group, it probably is....

I wonder how young women learnt about sex toys, porn and masturbation before youtube. Because we certainly weren't taught in school.

Regardless of youtube vloggers (which are presumably watched in private, and viewers have the option to click the little x on the top right of the browser window?) this does not mean the solution is explicit dice games in a classroom environment of other children with whom you may have tense relationships. School is not a 'safe space'- it's not a therapist's office.

In an era where it is apparently vital to refer to women as 'menstruators', 'people who bleed', 'birthing bodies', 'birthing parents' and so on to avoid triggering someone's gender dysphoria, spare a thought for the children in classrooms up and down the country who have been subjected to sexual abuse. What about their triggers?

You posted at 12.39 today: “I think young people should be taught about all kinds of LGBT sex, including how to hygienically use straps ons etc
You are advocating that female minors should be shown by adult teachers the care and maintenance of niche sex toys

I took that to mean young people as in school age where they do learn about sex, eg at high school
I see the point about females being shown that when they don't need, but also going by that argument people who are gay don't need then to be told about heterosexual sex as it doesn't apply to them.....

The funny thing is - before youtube was a thing, children were not turning to this to learn about sex toys because of the woeful gaps in their school education. When you're speaking to a generation of people who grew up before the internet, you cannot expect them to believe that youtube is providing a necessary service that schools are lacking - because they never had this themselves and have still grown up to be sexually active and happy with it. It isn't them that checked into the hospital with an anal prolapse as a teenage girl. It is the girls of this generation living through that.

Yeah I learnt about sex toys by going through my parents things and finding a couple which was quite unsettling at 14 and not being quite sure what they were. I learnt about STDs from people making jokes about them down the pub. I learnt about 'bumming' from people being homophobically abusive, I learnt about lesbians from some dodgy video that got covertly passed round at school and I learnt about the difference between homo, hetero and bi, as well as what transsexual meant, from the dictionary. Anything else I gleaned from movies, agony aunt columns and when I was a bit older from just about consensual sexual experiences with older people.

Weren't things great back then, when HIV was rampaging across the globe, teenage pregnancy was at all time high, Jimmy Saville was stalking the nation's hospitals and queer bashing was a weekend sport.

Sex education is not about bombarding minors with information about every gay and straight sex act that has ever been thought of with every bit of equipment imaginable, in the name of 'LGBT Sex Education'.

Young people, whatever their sexuality, should be provided with basic information about mechanics, info about avoiding pregnancy and STDs, including contraception, and lots of education about consent and respect, including how porn is skewing things for girls and boys. They then use this toolkit of info to then embark on their own individual 'journey of discovery', as it were, of what they do and don't like, hopefully in the healthiest way possible. They find out about stuff along the way, maybe they will go 'Ew, no way, lol!' or 'OK, that sounds like something I would be up for' and they do what they want, without ever being told they are being a prude or heteronormative or homophobic for not wanting to go near certain stuff.

Strap ons in school? What the fuck? I am thinking back to a 15 year old me and how fucking upsetting that would have been for me. What is wrong with you?

I see the point about females being shown that when they don't need, but also going by that argument people who are gay don't need then to be told about heterosexual sex as it doesn't apply to them....

But that's conflating sex as reproduction vs sex as recreation. Yes, they do need to know how babies are made, same as they need to know pythagoras theorem and the difference between a simile and a metaphor - it is one of the things society has decided people should be taught, and is a pretty basic one at that. Babies can only be made via heterosexual means therefore gay people need to know about it even though they are not themselves heterosexual.

When it gets into sex as recreation - in school that is basically talking about how it should be enjoyable, explore what feels good and never be afraid to say no, wait until you're ready and use protection. It's about respect, love and boundaries. You don't really have to differentiate between gay sex acts and straight sex acts.

I completely agree, and have already stated a desire for any discussion of LGBT issues to not devolve into such areas with depressing predictability. It seems like this is not such a uniquely male problem after all.

The topic is the LGBA/Boyz magazine story, and the LGBT community's reaction to it.

You have bought up in a now deleted post (many of your posts have been deleted here) that your reasons for your labeling a group as a hate group was summed up by two links. The first was completely irrelevant and showed more your own belief in superficial rumour.

The second was a twitter thread that posted tweets the account owner believed showed how hateful the group was. But in fact, was largely around safeguarding for children and teens.

This thread has remained on topic and might I point out has followed your own posts. We are trying to find out just what you actually find intolerable that LGB Alliance has objected to in LGBT education. I also note that I think I remember the twitter thread you posted also showed LGB Alliance saying no child should be taught in school or anywhere that they might be in the wrong body.

Your thoughts? Do you think you should take this up with the experts (you have deferred to expert opinion in the past on other threads) at the Department of Education? They have stated no child should be told they might be in the wrong body. A move that LGB Alliance have supported.

Please continue to provide us with the evidence of their hate. Because I am not really seeing strong and convincing evidence.

@Quaagars

You posted at 12.39 today: “I think young people should be taught about all kinds of LGBT sex, including how to hygienically use straps ons etc You are advocating that female minors should be shown by adult teachers the care and maintenance of niche sex toys

I took that to mean young people as in school age where they do learn about sex, eg at high school
I see the point about females being shown that when they don't need, but also going by that argument people who are gay don't need then to be told about heterosexual sex as it doesn't apply to them.....

1. Are you suggesting that teachers should ask all the children their sexuality in order to excuse the gay ones from learning about it?

Have you no idea how inappropriate that is?

2. I think the basics of human reproduction and who can, and who can't reproduce together, is relevant knowledge for general adult life of everyone.

3. Or are you envisaging a world where pupils who have outed themselves as gay get special science papers without any questions on reproduction?

4. how transphobic of you. If transwomen are women, then lesbians need to know how to prevent pregnancy. If transmen aren't men, then gay men need to know how to prevent pregnancy.

The other thing is, I feel like a lot of this would be quite upsetting for gay teenagers themselves.

I mean can you imagine being a 15 year old girl who is thinking that actually she feels like she might prefer girls to boys, and dealing with that, and then your teacher whips out a big strap on in class and is like 'right kids, this is what lesbians sometimes use, here's how you clean it....'?!

Or you're a 15 year old lad who thinks he might be gay and you are yet to have any kind of sexual experience with another boy, and then the agenda for RSE that day is learning about how some gay blokes like to pull each others foreskins over each other's penises? You might be thinking 'Christ on a bike, that sounds hideous, maybe I'm not gay after all....?'

How does it actually help LGBT young people?

I took that to mean young people as in school age where they do learn about sex, eg at high school

Yes that’s what I meant- high school age, which is up to eighteen, and before you’re 18, you’re a minor.

And adults showing and demonstrating explicit sexual material to minors is at best inappropriate, and at worst illegal.

@jj1968

The funny thing is - before youtube was a thing, children were not turning to this to learn about sex toys because of the woeful gaps in their school education. When you're speaking to a generation of people who grew up before the internet, you cannot expect them to believe that youtube is providing a necessary service that schools are lacking - because they never had this themselves and have still grown up to be sexually active and happy with it. It isn't them that checked into the hospital with an anal prolapse as a teenage girl. It is the girls of this generation living through that.

Yeah I learnt about sex toys by going through my parents things and finding a couple which was quite unsettling at 14 and not being quite sure what they were. I learnt about STDs from people making jokes about them down the pub. I learnt about 'bumming' from people being homophobically abusive, I learnt about lesbians from some dodgy video that got covertly passed round at school and I learnt about the difference between homo, hetero and bi, as well as what transsexual meant, from the dictionary. Anything else I gleaned from movies, agony aunt columns and when I was a bit older from just about consensual sexual experiences with older people.

Weren't things great back then, when HIV was rampaging across the globe, teenage pregnancy was at all time high, Jimmy Saville was stalking the nation's hospitals and queer bashing was a weekend sport.

As ever, this poster demands that all children are taught about sex in the light of their own experiences. Just as children in schools are targeted by some trans groups (not all) centring their own experiences / ideology and imposing their beliefs on impressionable children.

SRE / pastoral care and education generally are informed by education theory, child and adolescent development, research, education law and best practice. Not adults deciding that because they had an experience , every other child / adult must share it. It's naive, self centred and deeply selfish. When applied to SRE, it's downright dangerous.

[quote RealityNotEssentialism]@jj1968 yes I believe there are boundaries in terms of what schools teach. I mean sure, young people will go on YouTube and watch stuff like that but in my day before YouTube, we had problem pages of magazines where we asked that.
Do you think the average 14 year old wants to discuss fetish-porn, rimming and butt-plugs with his/her teacher? Really? Because I am guessing kids would be pretty fucking mortified at that. PHSE was painful enough as it was, let alone this crap that’s proposed. Of course schools aren’t going to teach about every single sexual quirk a person might have. That’s not their job.[/quote]
I'm not saying they should discuss every single quirk, I haven;t said anything remotely like that. I'm saying that LGB inclusive education should include basic safety/hygiene information on what LGB people, and heterosexual people for that matter might commonly do, which includes use of toys and anal sex. And that non-heterosexual/reproductive sex should not be stigmatised or presented as something abnormal and which must never be discussed.

@jj1968

The funny thing is - before youtube was a thing, children were not turning to this to learn about sex toys because of the woeful gaps in their school education. When you're speaking to a generation of people who grew up before the internet, you cannot expect them to believe that youtube is providing a necessary service that schools are lacking - because they never had this themselves and have still grown up to be sexually active and happy with it. It isn't them that checked into the hospital with an anal prolapse as a teenage girl. It is the girls of this generation living through that.

Yeah I learnt about sex toys by going through my parents things and finding a couple which was quite unsettling at 14 and not being quite sure what they were. I learnt about STDs from people making jokes about them down the pub. I learnt about 'bumming' from people being homophobically abusive, I learnt about lesbians from some dodgy video that got covertly passed round at school and I learnt about the difference between homo, hetero and bi, as well as what transsexual meant, from the dictionary. Anything else I gleaned from movies, agony aunt columns and when I was a bit older from just about consensual sexual experiences with older people.

Weren't things great back then, when HIV was rampaging across the globe, teenage pregnancy was at all time high, Jimmy Saville was stalking the nation's hospitals and queer bashing was a weekend sport.

I think you would have been mortified even if you’d learned how to use a sex toy in school. Nobody wants to imagine their parents using sex toys or porn or anything like that. I don’t think those feelings come from the fact that we’re not taught a wide enough range of sexual practices at school.

Of course it’s great that we have moved on from the homophobia of the 80s and Jimmy Savile. However, sexual abuse absolutely still happens - it’s not something we have left behind. Another thing is that sexual exploitation of girls is arguably worse today than in the 80s. The idea that a naked photo of you could circulate among all your classmates must be horrific. Or the fact that you’re expected to send naked pictures in the first place. There are girls who have taken their own lives because of it. Kids are being exposed to violent porn on the internet from a young age in a way that they weren’t in the past. I think education about boundaries and self-respect is more vital now than ever.

Yeah I learnt about sex toys by going through my parents things and finding a couple which was quite unsettling at 14 and not being quite sure what they were

Well perhaps you learned a valuable lesson in not snooping through other people's private things? That one is on you l'm afraid. This point adds nothing.

I learnt about STDs from people making jokes about them down the pub.
You should have been taught about STDs in school long before you were old enough to be 'down the pub'. I was. If your school was lacking, then I'm sorry for you, but clearly as the current SRE syllabus shows - it isn't anymore. So this point adds nothing as well.

I learnt about 'bumming' from people being homophobically abusive,

But as we have agreed that teaching about condoms will include that it is necessary to mention they are needed for anal sex - again, the current RSE syllabus should cover the fact that anal sex exists and needs to be safe. Do children really need to know anymore about it than that? I mean, is it really that complicated?

I learnt about lesbians from some dodgy video that got covertly passed round at school
Again - lgb training is in primary schools now, so this is unlikely to occur any more. Though the you tube videos may be just as 'dodgy'. But no child needs to 'watch' something that shows them what a lesbian is - an explanation of same sex attraction is sufficient and can be given to children from a very young age: 'sometimes boys love girls, sometimes boys love boys and girls love girls'. No one but lesbians need to know how it is they have sex, if we're honest, that's private business - and I don't see many lesbians advocating for videos of it being shown in classrooms.

I learnt about the difference between homo, hetero and bi, as well as what transsexual meant, from the dictionary. Anything else I gleaned from movies, agony aunt columns and when I was a bit older from just about consensual sexual experiences with older people.

This is all absolutely normal, natural and how it is supposed to be. Why do you think this is a problem?

When it gets into sex as recreation - in school that is basically talking about how it should be enjoyable, explore what feels good and never be afraid to say no, wait until you're ready and use protection. It's about respect, love and boundaries.
Completely agree with all that

But that's conflating sex as reproduction vs sex as recreation

True, but seeing as gay sex doesn't end in reproduction, should they just learn from playground talk/homophobic bully slurs etc as mentioned upthread then, or if not, how

Frankly jj your focus on this being specific to LGBT sex is alarming. It is not specific to LGBT sex at all. It involves use of sex toys and personal hygiene in general.

It probably can be summed up in one short paragraph that is non-specific.

No one but lesbians need to know how it is they have sex, if we're honest, that's private business

By that logic though, so is heterosexual sex.
Yes, I know it's different in that it produces babies, but sex isn't always about that?
If you're advocating for people not needing to learn about sex if it's not about reproduction that kind of rules out gay and lesbian sex being taught then.
As it's their own business?

jj1968, is that your birth year?

Do you think that extrapolating from your experiences of adolescence to gauge what teenage boys and teenage girls of today will learn without the Proud Trust's intervention might be somewhat misleading? I.e. out of date?

I certainly did not learn about STDs from jokes down the pub and nor do teens today have to.

from just about consensual sexual experiences with older people.

Sorry, I skim read your drivel posts, and missed the 'just about'. In that case, what you needed from sex ed was lessons on boundaries and consent (what we are advocating sex ed is) not better maintenance of sex toys (which is what you think it should include) and filling kid's heads with various exotic positions they could and should be trying.

I think education about boundaries and self-respect is more vital now than ever.

It most certainly is.

And to continue to point out, this supposed hate group also continues to support safeguarding boundaries. They have not, ever from what I have seen, been against LGBT education. It is fucking ridiculous to say they are.

They have pointed out when resources being used and messages being taught are not appropriate for safeguarding and not age appropriate. Or even appropriate to be taught in a class room environment.

@Quaagars

When it gets into sex as recreation - in school that is basically talking about how it should be enjoyable, explore what feels good and never be afraid to say no, wait until you're ready and use protection. It's about respect, love and boundaries. Completely agree with all that

But that's conflating sex as reproduction vs sex as recreation

True, but seeing as gay sex doesn't end in reproduction, should they just learn from playground talk/homophobic bully slurs etc as mentioned upthread then, or if not, how

What do you mean that gay sex doesn’t end in reproduction?

A transwoman can get a female partner pregnant and a ‘gay’ transman can get pregnant from their male partner....

Unless you are insinuating that a transwoman isn’t a real woman and therefore can’t have reproductive risk-free lesbian sex.
OR that a transman with a male partner can’t get pregnant themselves by having ‘gay’ sex.... you are being highly irresponsible and downright transphobic