Gay men's magazine bullied into grovelling

[aliasundercover]

twitter.com/BoyzMagazine/status/1332052779871965186

Looks like they're gunning for gay men now. Anything other than complete agreement is no good.

Readers here will be used to this sort of insanity:
twitter.com/robholley/status/1332054419337334789
I wonder if it will wake up those who have not seen it before?

By that logic though, so is heterosexual sex.
Yes, I know it's different in that it produces babies, but sex isn't always about that?
If you're advocating for people not needing to learn about sex if it's not about reproduction that kind of rules out gay and lesbian sex being taught then.
As it's their own business?

I have already explained this and this is massively disingenuous and twisting what I said. Biology is the lesson where we teach reproduction. It is a different lesson to RSE and yes it focuses on hetero sex because that is how we reproduce.

RSE is about consent and boundaries and safety - which applies to all sexualities - and we do not need to differentiate between which sexualities practice which sex acts as a bit of recreational fun .

I do not expect an RSE lesson to include a step by step how to on performing cunnilingus, however. Whether that is straight or lesbian cunnilingus, it is inappropriate to go into detail about it in a classroom.

"when I was a bit older from just about consensual sexual experiences with older people"

See - I don't want my or any other children having to talk about 'just about' consensual sexual experiences esp not with older people.

I want them to understand completely about consent before they embark on any type of sexual behaviour.

A transwoman can get a female partner pregnant and a ‘gay’ transman can get pregnant from their male partner....

I know they can.
Did I say they couldn't?

Way to not answer what I said though!
Now who's "twisting?!

I look forward to this brave new world in which transwomen are women, but we don't teach about the essential facts of reproduction as standard, because it's heterocentric to think it's universally useful knowledge to know where babies come from.

Yahoo answers has insane questions on this already. They will only get worse. I look forward to (more) young boys asking if two men can make a baby on yahoo answers, and girls thinking that transgirls can't get them pregnant.

And what will this mean for responsible pet ownership? Will we see more unwanted puppies and kittens from owners who didn't realise where babies came from?

"What do you mean that gay sex doesn’t end in reproduction"

Sex between people of the same sex doesn't result in reproduction.

It's quite important that children understand what type of sex can result in reproduction and the importance of contraception choices.

True, but seeing as gay sex doesn't end in reproduction, should they just learn from playground talk/homophobic bully slurs etc as mentioned upthread then, or if not, how

I mean.... from that actual quote from your actual post.... It sure sounds like you are saying that gay sex doesn’t end up in reproduction.

Maybe I misread you post?.... nope, still says gay people can’t make babies.

So which is it? Can gay men make babies or not?

@Quaagars

A transwoman can get a female partner pregnant and a ‘gay’ transman can get pregnant from their male partner....

I know they can.
Did I say they couldn't?

Way to not answer what I said though!
Now who's "twisting?!

You, not ten minutes ago

By that logic though, so is heterosexual sex.
Yes, I know it's different in that it produces babies, but sex isn't always about that?
If you're advocating for people not needing to learn about sex if it's not about reproduction that kind of rules out gay and lesbian sex being taught then

Quote fail, last post was directed to Quaagers who I can’t work out whether they believe gay men having sex can actually result in babies or not... or if they need to go back and have some sex ed classes themselves.

The move away from biological reality and the insistence that you can be the opposite sex if you feel like it means that some trans youth are not aware that they can get someone pregnant or become pregnant themselves. Some people think you can’t get pregnant if you’re non-binary, even if born female. Surely not helped by Teen Vogue articles on how ‘girl dick’ is so incredibly different from ‘cis dick’.

We seem to be moving away from the material reality of sex, whether heterosexual or same-sex and towards some bizarre fantasy world where kids need to hear about strap-ons and fisting but absolutely can’t be told that women menstruate and can become pregnant. I really don’t think this is either good or progressive.

@dyslek
I think you must be looking at a different thread. I am not interested in discussing anything like that, and haven't, to the best of my knowledge.

I made a long list of what homophobic and transphobic things the LGBA have been accused of, and LGBT education was in that list.

And in response to several posters' insistent and direct questioning, i stated that genital preferences were not transphobic.

I hope that clears things up.

Has Teen Vogue ever done an article informing girls that cunnilingus is a normal sexual act that many women enjoy, or is it all about anal penetration and the characteristics of a penis whose owner is taking supplemental oestrogen?

@PotholeParadies

jj1968, is that your birth year?

Do you think that extrapolating from your experiences of adolescence to gauge what teenage boys and teenage girls of today will learn without the Proud Trust's intervention might be somewhat misleading? I.e. out of date?

I certainly did not learn about STDs from jokes down the pub and nor do teens today have to.

So true. I was born in the mid 80s. Our PHSE wasn’t perfect but it absolutely covered the basics. We didn’t have YouTube or social media when I was at school which I thank the Lord for. Our teachers were open with us though and I knew all about STDs and safe sex. I also read a lot of teen magazines and the information there was actually quite good and it was full of advice to wait until you were ready, not to give in to pressure etc. I can’t imagine if there had been articles about how I needed to expand my sexual boundaries and try anal and ‘breath play’. I think I would have found it quite distressing.

Ooh dear, that means you're a millennial, Reality. One of the yoof who isn't supposed to be on MN. MNers are all supposed to be extremely aged and totally out of touch with millennials and Gen Z and their kinship those age groups share with trans people.

Also, we've all led very sheltered lives. Which reminds me. jj, that homeless hostel I used to live in that I told you about? In the lobby, there were leaflets about every single STI then known, leaflets about contraceptives and a display board of factoids. You had to walk past it to get in and out.

Oh yes I know, @PotholeParadies. It is so very strange. I can only conclude that I don’t really exist. I mean I thought it was only like rly old people living in the dark ages who are so jealous of the yoof who have these problematic opinions. Back in their day when there wasn’t running water or electricity or even broadband, people were very unenlightened, which is why they now find it so hard to accept that sex is socially constructed and exists on a spectrum and there are 72 genders.

@nepeta

There is plenty of reasoned debate, and it is intolerant bigots who are "torn apart", using well-worn arguments. Transphobia, homophobia, misogyny, racism, etc all fall apart when their underlying intolerance and disgust is exposed. Transphobia is only unique amongst these examples because of the extreme asymmetry of numbers. "trans activists" or "TRA" are bullshit terms for any transgender person whose opinion you wish to invalidate, by framing us as 'an ideology' as opposed to 'people'

But that definition defines transphobia so widely that even asking questions about possibly conflicting rights has already been defined as transphobic. My comment was about the definition, its extreme scope, and the fact that it explicitly states that debate is unacceptable because it means questioning the transgender people's rights to exist.

It also suggests that defending women's sex-based rights (against sex-based oppression) is in itself transphobic, because any conflict of rights has been ruled out apriori.

So I managed to locate the link to the 'definition' by re-reading the whole thread, which was less than a pleasant experience. I hadn't come across it before, but have now saved it, so thank you. I hadn't read it when I wrote the comment you quoted, but my statement and their definition don't appear to conflict in any way.

I found the Trans Actual document to be concise, clear and informative.
I don't consider it over-broad, it just says "don't be an arsehole to transgender people"
I don't see how 'asking questions' would be problematic, when operating within the spirit of those guidelines.
As for 'defending women's sex-based rights against sex based oppression' you'd have to explain how they are attacked by trans people's rights.
From what I understand, by using the word 'sex' and not 'gender' they implicitly put themselves in opposition to trans rights so are designed to exclude trans women, so yes that would be problematic.
An interesting point made during IDEVAW was that if "sex based oppression" is biological rather than social (thereby excluding trans women, which was the point trying to be made), then there is no possible solution to it, which does seem like GC painting itself into a corner, TBH,

I'm sure there's words and definitions in there that some would quibble while I would take them at face value, so I'm OK with the document, whereas you might disagree.

Could someone please archive this thread so that we can have safe?

The arguments on sex toys and strap ons were first

1. It is excluding LBGT not to have that as that is essential to their sex lives. Then

1. No, actually it is essential because of the risk of STDs with sex toys. Then

1. Young people are desperate for good information about sex toys to finally

1. I had a bad childhood with insufficient sex education, so the children today need sex toys...

This is unbelievable. The constant push for sex toys and strap ins under various guises. I feel very sorry for everyone who had a traumatic childhood. However, a bad childhood sometimes includes sexual abuse and the victims of that definitely do not need to see strap-ins and sex toys.

@PotholeParadies

Ooh dear, that means you're a millennial, Reality. One of the yoof who isn't supposed to be on MN. MNers are all supposed to be extremely aged and totally out of touch with millennials and Gen Z and their kinship those age groups share with trans people.

Also, we've all led very sheltered lives. Which reminds me. jj, that homeless hostel I used to live in that I told you about? In the lobby, there were leaflets about every single STI then known, leaflets about contraceptives and a display board of factoids. You had to walk past it to get in and out.

Mine too funnily enough. I remember a sexual health workshop that someone came in to give where the instructor put a condom on a banana with their mouth and all kinds of sexual practices were discussed. The hostel was for 16-25 year olds. Nobody freaked out. Nobody was groomed and it was certainly better than the scant sex education I'd been given at school.

They do talk about gay sex in school

I dont really know why some people think they don’t

Apologies if the conversation has moved on

Reading the thread while watching a Christmas movie and its really not working

Rufus, I think it is as good a place to make that comment as any.

I think that this thread is a wonderful example of certain people pushing a certain agenda and trying to mask this behind various excuses, gay rights being one of them.

As for 'defending women's sex-based rights against sex based oppression' you'd have to explain how they are attacked by trans people's rights.
From what I understand, by using the word 'sex' and not 'gender' they implicitly put themselves in opposition to trans rights so are designed to exclude trans women, so yes that would be problematic.

For real? Are you genuinely saying this? That someone talking about the very real occurrence of sex discrimination, in accordance with law throughout the UK, is transphobic? Firstly, trans people have the right not to be discriminated against and to live lives free from abuse and violence. They don’t have the right to be something they are not. They are not biological women, who are a different class with different issues to them that need legal protection. One instance of potential encroachment on women’s rights is where there are scholarships and funding that is set aside for women, who have historically been underrepresented in a particular field. That is why that funding exists. If you give it to someone who is a trans woman, you are taking it away from women. Same with prisons. While women have faced risks and abuse in prison, it is only since natal males have been put on the female estate that women have faced the risk of rape by fellow inmates. So there is a new risk that was not there previously.

You can have facilities and funding for trans people and I think this should happen. But that isn’t what TRAs want at all. They want trans people to be part of a group that they are not part of and any reminder that they are not is now labelled as hatred.

I found the Trans Actual document to be concise, clear and informative. I don't consider it over-broad, it just says "don't be an arsehole to transgender people"

Define 'arsehole' in that context.

An interesting point made during IDEVAW was that if "sex based oppression" is biological rather than social (thereby excluding trans women, which was the point trying to be made), then there is no possible solution to it, which does seem like GC painting itself into a corner, TBH,

Why is there 'no possible solution' to sex-based oppression?

So, not totally dependent on smutty talk down the pub for info then?

Now, I'd like to talk you through something, one hostel veteran to another. What is suitable for 16-25 year olds (bearing in mind the age of consent for men and women, in same-sex and opposite-sex relationships is 16) is not the same as what is suitable for secondary age pupils.

This is especially the case as residents of a hostel can walk out of a talk, and attendance in the first place is voluntary. I can think of fellow residents who were abuse survivors who would not have gone near such a workshop for anything less than being promised an immediate council flat tenancy, and perhaps not even then. Their choice.

School children don't get to choose whether to attend RSE classes and they don't get to walk out if they find it triggering and they are at a different life stage.

@Impatiens

I found the Trans Actual document to be concise, clear and informative. I don't consider it over-broad, it just says "don't be an arsehole to transgender people"

Define 'arsehole' in that context.

An interesting point made during IDEVAW was that if "sex based oppression" is biological rather than social (thereby excluding trans women, which was the point trying to be made), then there is no possible solution to it, which does seem like GC painting itself into a corner, TBH,

Why is there 'no possible solution' to sex-based oppression?

It’s such a dumb and weak argument and they keep making it. No, there is no way out of biological reality. I can’t make myself not be a woman because I very clearly am (and have all the delightful stuff to prove it like severe PMT and all and no doubt more to come when I go through menopause). So I can’t change that. HOWEVER, society can stop treating me like a second-class citizen just because I don’t have a penis. I will still be a woman but I won’t be treated like crap (I am generalising here as I know I am relatively fortunate compared to many other women).

Ffs, why is this so hard for people to grasp? I have heard actual professors spout this bull too and I just want to shake them.

And to hammer this home, sex ed in schools has been improving in the UK.

Schools have not been statically trapped in the 70s or even the 80s. I got the banana+condom demo in school. It's a cliché of school RSE at this point.