Scottish Trans Alliance to challenge For Women Scotland judicial review

[WhatsthetruthRuth]

I see that the previous post with this title has been deleted because it was deemed to be ‘fundraising’ and broke MN Guidelines against this. Can this be a thread where we can discuss the total fucking injustice of having a Scottish Government funded body with Scottish Government funded lawyers opposing a grass roots Women’s organisation who wish to oppose the Scottish Government’s attempts to redefine the word ‘woman’. Please?

I think it needs discussing. It’s too important. And let’s not have any mention or attempt to talk about raising any funds for any organisation otherwise this will disappear too

https://beta.parliament.scot/-/media/files/legislation/bills/previous-bills/scottish-national-investment-bank-bill/introduced/policy-memorandum-scottish-national-investment-bank-bill.pdf

That first pic posted.

It says that 51% of the population self identify as women.

I just don't get all this at all.

51% of the population ARE women. They are female.

With the use of gender instead of sex all over the place for years, when asked gender, people tick their sex.

They don't know they are being asked what their internal sense of their gender is and many/ most would be baffled about that.

The whole thing hinges on an idea, that the vast majority of people have a strongly felt internal sense of their gender, and for most people this matches their sex.

The problem is that the idea of having s strongly felt internal sense of gender comes from the experience of trans people. Who by definition do, because it doesn't match their sex.

But no one has really looked into if this internal feeling is common in the general population. It's an assumption.

Then you get further issues that when women say, hold on. I don't have this feeling. They are told that they are so comfy they just don't even notice it. Ie they don't know their own minds.

Also if someone like me, who definitely does not have this feeling, and has felt actively uncomfortable with confining gender role since a child. Says well by your definitions I'm trans then. They're told no you're not. Self ID is not for middle aged feminists. It's seen as trouble making.

This whole thing is to me nonsensical. It always has been.

If course some people are dysphoric or deeply uncomfortable with their gender role. Integrating those things into laws and society would be much easier if there wasn't this push to change the definition of woman, girl, female. So the cunty 51% have literally no words to describe us as a group.

I know you all know this but the keeness of orgs, lawmakers, govts to go along with this is just insane.

If gender identity actually existed, there would be an objective way of determining how you know if you have a male or female gender identity.

I don't know whether I have a female gender identity. I don't know how I would feel if my body had been male and I had been raised as a boy. If I had the same brain as I have now, would I feel 'trapped' in the wrong body? Or would I be fine with it?

What things indicate whether I have a male or female gender identity?

Nobody can answer these questions (they used to try but it all boiled down to stereotypes, so now they don't even try). Therefore I doubt the existence of a gender identity.

The reference about the UK nvestment bank bill is fascinating - it claims that when people say 51% of the population are women, this actually means 51% self identify as women, not 51% are female born, so women in this legislation must/should mean self identified women.

That explains why they are so adament to make the census collect self identified gender and not sex. That can then be used to claim that woman is always a self identity category in every other context too. When drawing up any laws or policies that refer to women, anyone objecting to a 'self id' interpretation of the word can be referred to the census - "yes roughly half the population are female according to the census, but that means they self identify as female."

They are relying on people thinking sex means gender.

Or won't think about it too much/ know the definitions etc

It's piss poor.

When explained. Many/ most people are, by their definitions, agender or non binary.

I don't understand why sex and gender can't be treated as different things. That would make sense. All protected characteristics covered.

The justification in the image above says very few people are trans so it makes no odds to put anyone who ID's as a woman in the woman category is really lazy thinking.

The SNP believes that transwomen are adult human females because it says so on a T-Shirt.

I don’t think they have come up with anything else but, obviously, when you’ve got this sort of evidence what more proof do you need?

archive.vn/nPcN6

"Self identify as women"...WE ARE WOMEN!! but I guess that's not allowed these days..."Woman" is a dirty word.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-55582302

Lady Wise told the lawyers she would issue her opinion on the matter sometime in the near future.

She added: "This is an important case. It is a difficult case. I have got to the stage of understanding what the question is but I certainly don't have the answer.

"There is a large volume of written material for me to consider again and for me to consider all the submissions made."

She said she was grateful to all parties and that she would issue a written opinion after consideration.

If the Judge thinks this is difficult or complicated then For Women Scotland have lost. There is nothing remotely difficult about this issue. Expect a word salad judgement much like Maya's case.

JFC!!! ”I have got to the stage of understanding what the question is”

That’s on a par with that judge in the 60’s or 70’s who had never heard of The Beatles - ”A popular beat combo, I believe, m’Lud.”

I actually came to post this. A bit late as it a video clip uploaded on 5th Jan, taken (according to the description) from a live Q&A on 12th Dec 2020.

”Judicial Review of the redefinition of women in the Gender Representation on Public Boards Scotland”

Feminist Question Time LIVE with speakers from Switzerland, Denmark, Scotland, Chile and USA

Women's Human Rights Campaign (WHRC) Feminist Question Time on 12 December.

Our weekly online webinars are attended by a global feminist and activist audience of between 200-350. The main focus is how gender ideology is harming the rights of women and girls. You can see recordings of previous panels on ourYouTube Channel.

This week’s speakers:
Irena Lampérth, Humanist, radical feminist newcomer & teacher for special needs, Switzerland

Maria Boyes, WHRC Country Contact, Denmark

Shereen Benjamin, For Women Scotland

Natalia Alvarez Amado, radical feminist video maker & member of FRESA, Chile

M K Fain, writer, activist, engineer, publisher and co-founder of Spinster, USA

======

The other speakers are in separate videos:

www.youtube.com/channel/UCWECmp5Tk3epYSkjs0qAKKQ/videos

Women’s Human Rights Campaign

womensdeclaration.com/en/

I was chatting to DH earlier yet again about how this has all happened.

He is strongly of the view that most men think of trans women as small, slight, effeminate, gay men. So no risk to women.

My points about.

They're still men though
Men should accept them
Isn't it that men empathise with men and day yes they're in danger help them
And also get rid of 'non men'from their spaces
And why aren't all small men, gay men etc sent in with the women

Got not much answer

I said. Bros before hoes. Men empathise with men. They're not even thinking about women.

He's onside generally but. That was not a satisfactory conversation.

He just can't comprehend the threat that even a weak man represents to most women. He's a big fella. He just has no frame of reference.

He tuts at the rugby stuff but he doesn't say I'm going on a protest..

In the end, like with DV, rape etc. It's seen as a women's issue. And men just tune out/ not their problem.

Why are 'women's issues' and even going into stuff like CSA and abuse of elderly people in care homes, not men's business?

It's so tiring, and stupid.

In the end the question is. Why don't they care? The governments. The other institutions police etc. The papers. Buried in the women's section.

Why aren't these things a priority for society? Why don't they give a fuck?

Tell him to have a look at these characters and ask if he still feels the same way. I doubt he’d want to get in a lift with any of them, let alone be incarcerated with them, however big and strong he is. Maybe that will help adjust his frame of reference

transcrimeuk.com/

Oh he knows all that I go on about it all the time !

He was trying to give an explanation as to why the average bloke doesn't give a toss.

I said no you're wrong it's because men empathise with men and don't really care about women in general.

He didn't like that :D he was being honest though. We talk about it all a lot.

Ah! I get it now

I think you are right. It’s interesting that he thinks that though. Is he just guessing or has he actually talked to other men about it? He could be your secret weapon to educate some men folk

gentle bump ... the costs of this case have gone up enormously due to the intervention of government funded groups. FWS need £59,000. I think they are going to extend fundraising for the next three months if you can commit to lobbying some carrots their way on a regular basis that would be great.

gentle bumpette

Thank you for that fatblack - it is so wrong that women are having to pay twice over to try and defend their rights.

With this action by the Scottish government and the imminent threat to sex data on the census the situation is pretty dire.

gentle bump ... the costs of this case have gone up enormously due to the intervention of government funded groups. FWS need £59,000. I think they are going to extend fundraising for the next three months if you can commit to lobbying some carrots their way on a regular basis that would be great.

Absolutely will.

bumpette - as donations seem to have stalled. I'm going donate again this friday

Thanks for bumping this up. Will do some more digging after pay day.

Thanks Fatblack

Yes, women have to find yet more to use the existing law to stop their rights being damaged. Because of a government group using government funding to try and make it a whole lot harder for them.

Yay being trapped in a female body in 2021.

bumpette just donated incase anyone is paid this friday./

I think people are being a little unfair on the judge. This isn’t simple. It’s not a matter of the definition of woman alone but of the interaction of Scots devolved law and Westminster/ U.K. legislation. That’s always a nightmare. She will also be well aware that it’s likely to be appealed so will want to ensure that her reasoning is sound and entirely based on law and precedent. There’s no emotion in it.

@EvelynBeatrice

I think people are being a little unfair on the judge. This isn’t simple. It’s not a matter of the definition of woman alone but of the interaction of Scots devolved law and Westminster/ U.K. legislation. That’s always a nightmare. She will also be well aware that it’s likely to be appealed so will want to ensure that her reasoning is sound and entirely based on law and precedent. There’s no emotion in it.

I agree. I followed the live tweeting (there was some towards the end of the hearing) & other reports of the hearing. I don't think the judgement will be about 'what is a woman' as much as whether the legislation builds on or alters the EA, & whether that's allowed under the Scotland act. It's going to be technical on the interaction between different bits of legislation under devolution mostly I think.

The section of SNP that's really serious about overwriting sex with gender identity would have been wiser to concentrate on independence first and then they would have been able to do this without having to worry about Westminster legislation like EA. Instead they've drawn attention to this plan before any referendum. Luckily for us.

yes 3 months to consider serious consitituional issues seems fairly quick