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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Scottish Trans Alliance to challenge For Women Scotland judicial review

175 replies

WhatsthetruthRuth · 25/11/2020 19:14

I see that the previous post with this title has been deleted because it was deemed to be ‘fundraising’ and broke MN Guidelines against this. Can this be a thread where we can discuss the total fucking injustice of having a Scottish Government funded body with Scottish Government funded lawyers opposing a grass roots Women’s organisation who wish to oppose the Scottish Government’s attempts to redefine the word ‘woman’. Please?

I think it needs discussing. It’s too important. And let’s not have any mention or attempt to talk about raising any funds for any organisation otherwise this will disappear too Angry

OP posts:
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littlbrowndog · 08/01/2021 12:57

Yeah how the hell are we the same as trans women

Otherwise we would all be called women

My country a disgrace to women and girls

highame · 08/01/2021 13:02

Always a transcript Arabella but not sure how long it takes to be available. Thanks for the links Nonny

ArabellaScott · 08/01/2021 13:05

Great, thanks highame. And I suppose it will be too late by then to do anything about it, anyway!

littlbrowndog · 08/01/2021 13:14

Trying

Scottish Trans Alliance to challenge For Women Scotland judicial review
MerchedCymru · 08/01/2021 13:18

Via their lawyer, the SG have just stated that women are not disadvantaged by their physical difference but by their role.

They can't actually believe this. To assert it is to ignore all the evidence, to pretend that physical realities like being smaller and less strong, like dealing with menstruating, pregnancy, abortion, rape, menopause are irrelevant to our lives and can be identified out of.

This is the Scottish Government lying in order to assert the rights of males over those of females. Breathtaking.

TheShadowyFeminist · 08/01/2021 13:21

" I think this may well not go our way. "

I think I agree although I'm far from convinced by the nonsense spouted today about it being a legitimate aim to always treat TW as women etc.

Even if the judgement goes against FWS, the Scotgov position has revealed so much about their lies, obfuscation & gaslighting that it's pretty much uncontested that they're actively against any single sex exceptions despite their disingenuous claims that they aren't touching the EA 2010. They've reached that policy position without any consultation or research & never even bothered to put it in any manifesto or get even broad support within their own party.

If the SNP think they'll persuade women to vote for them come may, I've got some tartan paint they can buy from me while soliciting my vote.

littlbrowndog · 08/01/2021 13:29

Exactly let’s just all say we are self identify out of our roles whatever they are

No maternity wards. No women’s health. No rape crimes

No FGM

Because it’s all just a role us women play

Are they fucking kidding me

MerchedCymru · 08/01/2021 13:33

It's up there with the Trump supporters insisting that antifa were behind the Capitol take-over. The size of this lie is staggering.

NonnyMouse1337 · 08/01/2021 13:37

Even if the judgement goes against FWS, the Scotgov position has revealed so much about their lies, obfuscation & gaslighting that it's pretty much uncontested that they're actively against any single sex exceptions despite their disingenuous claims that they aren't touching the EA 2010. They've reached that policy position without any consultation or research & never even bothered to put it in any manifesto or get even broad support within their own party.

Absolutely. This was all meant to be hidden and passed through behind the scenes as per the Denton's handbook.
Public awareness is growing and it's not going to go away.

littlbrowndog · 08/01/2021 13:58

More from Twitter

Scottish Trans Alliance to challenge For Women Scotland judicial review
Mollyollydolly · 08/01/2021 13:59

I've complained about this online article on The BBC website. The headline is misleading. Again, it's all framed around trans rights, not women rights. Feel free to complain too. The online articles do not seem to have the same journalistic rigour as broadcast material. I keep complaining every single time, and ask for a response. They'll get fed up before I do.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-55579700?fbclid=IwAR1ibc8yZix4wHm3mJX5dD2em8KtdMM62fUX4Ih-lgz4IHk14DOOoHjs9ac

teawamutu · 08/01/2021 14:05

[quote Mollyollydolly]I've complained about this online article on The BBC website. The headline is misleading. Again, it's all framed around trans rights, not women rights. Feel free to complain too. The online articles do not seem to have the same journalistic rigour as broadcast material. I keep complaining every single time, and ask for a response. They'll get fed up before I do.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-55579700?fbclid=IwAR1ibc8yZix4wHm3mJX5dD2em8KtdMM62fUX4Ih-lgz4IHk14DOOoHjs9ac[/quote]
I complained too.

ArabellaScott · 08/01/2021 14:19

Is it still happening, when will we hear the outcome, does anyone know? I'm trying not to bite my nails, here.

MichelleofzeResistance · 08/01/2021 14:24

I saw that this morning too. Always framed about mean women meanly excluding trans people. I wonder how most readers would react if it was put the other and much more honest way: males seek to remove all female only spaces, language and rights for their own benefit.

Yes, it's now openly there, the implications and hinting have become actual plain sunlight: what is meant by 'trans rights' is the subordination in law of females to males.

There will always be a lot of men who will gleefully enjoy this and be very happy to vote for it, like the 'well this is what you get for getting out of your little boxes like silly girls' idiots in the newspaper comments.

I refer to Kipling. The female of the species etc etc.

I still think this will be forced to end in thousands, if not millions of us, identifying as men and pushing this past the system's ability to cope.

TheShadowyFeminist · 08/01/2021 14:25

It's back, FWS QC challenging the submission that introduced an exert from Hansard - QC arguing that this isn't admissible. Also referencing a minister statement that goes against submissions made by Scotgov on their position by their QC.

CharlieParley · 08/01/2021 14:27

Astonishing stuff. However this goes, the Scottish Government has had to lay its cards open in court as to its view on women and women's rights. Which is somewhat divergent from its other public announcements on the matter. Here are the positions so far taken on women, their rights and the inequality they face:

It always includes males who identify as trans (regardless of their legal status or any actual transition) in the class of females unless specifically prohibited from doing so by legislation.

The problem:

The Equality Act does not prohibit treating men and women the same, it allows treating them differently. I am unaware of any situation in law where it is specifically forbidden to treat a subset of men and women the same, (but maybe there are such situations).

It does so because males who identify as trans are "sufficiently similar to females" to be treated the same.

Well, yes, we are all of us members of the same mammal species.

Homo sapiens sapiens.

Which has evolved into a sexually dimorphic species comprising of two distinct and mutually exclusive sex classes, male and female.

So does the Scottish Government challenge this material fact? On the basis of what?

As the Scottish Government has not chosen to ever quantify or qualify at which point it considers a male who claims a trans identity to be so similar to a female as to be treated as female and considering that a male's embodiment of this trans identity may range from a mere thought to a verbal declaration to crossdressing to facial surgery to breast implants to hormones to castration and penectomy, the Scottish Government has thus declared in court that an undefinable subset of men and women are similar and can therefore be treated the same even when it endeavours to remedy historic inequalities faced by only the female sex.

This is a questionable position to take unless the Scottish Government does not accept the protections and rights afforded to women and girls on the basis of their sex under the Equality Act.

And it seems to me that the further statements made by the QC arguing for the government show that this is indeed the case.

As seen on Twitter, she argued in court today that women are not experiencing inequality / discrimination / oppression on the basis of their sex (or as the QC put it "their biological differences") but on the basis of their role. This is an argument we are familiar with - that women and girls experience inequality not on the basis of their sex but their gender. (Gender is here used in the sense of the sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes imposed upon members of each sex by the society they live in.) However, these stereotypes arise from societal beliefs about the sexes and are demonstrably imposed on the basis of sex, so they cannot be uncoupled from sex. It's a nonsense to deny women and girls are oppressed on the basis of their sex especially given the empirical evidence of harms almost exclusively experienced by members of the female sex class, starting even before we are born.

The most damaging aspect of this is that this position logically leads to the assumption that those of us who are in any way, shape or form disadvantaged because of our sex, could have avoided this by rejecting these stereotypes. That only those women suffer male violence who believe themselves victims.

What was my role as a child when men attacked me? And could I have avoided this by adopting the role of boy-child? Was is that role? And how does one adopt it? Because as a tomboy, I was assertive, boisterous, played football with the neighbourhood boys, rejected dolls, dresses, makeup etc etc etc. I would argue that I did not embody the role of a stereotypical girl and I most certainly did not believe I was going to be a victim of male violence because I didn't have the faintest clue what that was. And yet. I was attacked. Why? By the time I was 14, every single one of my female friends had been sexually assaulted. Why not all of the boys? Why not even most of the boys? All the girls. What was our "role" that led to us being attacked but not the boys?

Maybe you can make sense of it. I can't. The only thing I'm holding onto here is that any argument that can get you out of a bind in court is going to be made. But the policies that have been coming out of this government for the last few years strongly suggest to me that this isn't mere expediency but firmly held beliefs.

MichelleofzeResistance · 08/01/2021 14:47

One wonders what these muppets would say about the poor transman who was raped in the back of a taxi despite repeatedly sobbing to their rapist that they were a man.

Did this poor TM fail in their role in some way? Or shall we face facts that the rapist was not remotely interested in their prey's feelings on their essence, their identity, their role or even their gendered appearance and were solely focused on the fact of the person's biology?

And that due to their own biology, they felt a birthright of entitlement to that female biology without regard or interest in that female's consent or feelings about it?

CharlieParley · 08/01/2021 14:58

Yes, good question MichelleofzeResistance.

QC for FWS has now moved onto the fact that this particular piece of legislation specifically discriminates against females who identify as trans. He's rather fired up at the nonsense of creating a law to remedy a historical inequality suffered by females that introduces a new way to discriminate against a subset of females.

TheShadowyFeminist · 08/01/2021 15:27

FWS QC making much of the newly declared Scotgov policy that TWAW & it occurs to me that presumably Scotgov will be reversing their position in not challenging the Catholic Church who have been allowed to not consider TM as M for the purposes of allowing a TM to become a priest? Even the Equality Network were not fussed about the position the Catholic Church takes on TM. I mean, if it's government policy now? 🤨

TheShadowyFeminist · 08/01/2021 15:32

Now Scotgov QC now trying to revere ferret on this policy.

ArabellaScott · 08/01/2021 15:42

I don't know if you're on here, 'Obsolesence' from Twitter, but if you are, thank you for such sterling work tweeting!

TheShadowyFeminist · 08/01/2021 15:44

She was great 👍

ArabellaScott · 08/01/2021 15:47

I'm curious, actually, whether the SNP noted the strength of feeling on the amendment for the forensic bill.

I daresay they did.

And election's in May.

The SNP are ultimately populists, above all else.

Ca' canny, Scotgov.

TheShadowyFeminist · 08/01/2021 15:56

You would wonder then why they'd submit that their position on TW is that they will always be regarded as women (so basically self ID TWAW) irrespective of the single sex exceptions in the EA 2010.

They've gaslit & obfuscated their position until they laid it out here when defending their legislation.

I here Peter Murrell may be on his way out, and perhaps NS has decided f**k it & just went with the TWAW position as she no longer gives a damn about the women who won't Wheesht & can be arsed to pretend otherwise any more.

ArabellaScott · 08/01/2021 16:03

their position on TW is that they will always be regarded as women (so basically self ID TWAW) irrespective of the single sex exceptions in the EA 2010

Yep, sounds like this has been very clearly spelled out here. The SNP have introduced Self ID, without telling anyone. Actually this seems to go beyond Self ID, as even then the exemptions in the Equality Act were to count for someone with a GRC, as I understood it.

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