Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Scottish Trans Alliance to challenge For Women Scotland judicial review

175 replies

WhatsthetruthRuth · 25/11/2020 19:14

I see that the previous post with this title has been deleted because it was deemed to be ‘fundraising’ and broke MN Guidelines against this. Can this be a thread where we can discuss the total fucking injustice of having a Scottish Government funded body with Scottish Government funded lawyers opposing a grass roots Women’s organisation who wish to oppose the Scottish Government’s attempts to redefine the word ‘woman’. Please?

I think it needs discussing. It’s too important. And let’s not have any mention or attempt to talk about raising any funds for any organisation otherwise this will disappear too Angry

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
ArabellaScott · 08/01/2021 16:04

The logical end point of this, of course, is the abolishing of all single-sex spaces, rights and exclusions.

It seems that this is where we are, legally?

malloo · 08/01/2021 16:07

feeling quite stressed about this, but very grateful to FWS for doing everything they can to fight it.

MichelleofzeResistance · 08/01/2021 16:13

I'd love to know (Thank you for that Twitter signpost Arabella) if at any point it was nailed down as to what it means to 'live as a woman'.

Because other than 'existing with female biology' wtaf can it mean?

Costume?

'Role' enactment would require establishing exactly what a woman's role is and separating that from a lot of personal opinion on stereotypes: if 'washing up' is enacting a woman's role, or 'being caring' is a woman's role, does a man who does being caring while washing up stop being a man and become a woman regardless of his own sense of identity?

Names - are not fixedly assigned to a 'gender' with a line where transgressing means the gender is changed, willing or not.

All this waffling nonsense to skirt around the very, very obvious facts, because the facts are 'unkind'. To male people. You can be as unkind as you like to female people. Sex based thinking all the time although sex isn't supposed to be binary/ascertainable/a Thing.

MichelleofzeResistance · 08/01/2021 16:15

This is what they seem to have skirted all round this afternoon.

Does a person with female biology who does not say the proper words in identifying as a woman, or adhere to male prescribed stereotypes of what a woman is, stop being a woman?

What do they become?

Do they get any kind of say in this?

What happens to them under law?

Which sex is trying to commandeer and set all the rules here for which other sex? Which sex benefits from doing this, and which sex is negatively affected?

ArabellaScott · 08/01/2021 16:15

Yes, the trouble is nobody ever seems to look these questions squarely in the face and ask them, Michelle.

You'd think law-makers would need to be quite certain of terms used to make law.

CharlieParley · 08/01/2021 16:17

Don't feel stressed. We have a good chance of winning this, and all we can do now is wait for the verdict to see what this judge makes of both sides' arguments. And remember, this is a long-haul trip, with many a detour. Even if this goes against our side, there are many more challenges to come where we may prevail. Btw, much of today's and yesterday's arguments were incredibly technical, including time spent discussing the importance of a space (!) in the text of the legislation. And sometimes judges can deliver a verdict that means the case is lost on a technicality while the moral victory comes from airing the matter in court and bringing issues to public attention.

CharlieParley · 08/01/2021 16:19

I'd love to know (Thank you for that Twitter signpost Arabella) if at any point it was nailed down as to what it means to 'live as a woman'.

No. The FWS QC kept highlighting this, and asking what this means, but there has been no answer. The Scottish Government has so far refused to answer this question, and it's not for want of asking. So, no, the ScotGov QC did not answer that question either.

MichelleofzeResistance · 08/01/2021 16:25

Thank you, that's interesting to know. It seems disingenuous, not to mention odd, that a court of law is discussing this without pinning down what is actually meant by it. Because it's a fistful of smoke and a very obvious one.

The logical end point of this, of course, is the abolishing of all single-sex spaces, rights and exclusions.

Do you see it that way?

I don't see the battle here to turn everything everywhere mixed sex, I see it as wanting to preserve women's spaces in all things but male people can use them and be in them and part of them at will, whether or not female people consent or are negatively affected. It's the end of permitting female people any identity, space or right to group themselves without male presence and supervision as the subordination of females is part of this in not permitting them to be consulted or to refuse.

It will not be the end of permitting male people, since male people just laugh and say no. And because sex is a thing, they get listened to.

Which is why all male people can choose their personal preference of the moment of the three ponds at Hampstead Heath, but some female people cannot access any at all, at any time. Because male people said so, have the power to control this, and have organised it to suit male people's needs while overruling female disadvantage.

Datun · 08/01/2021 16:32

You know what, MichelleofzeResistance, I love your posts and recognise the truth in everything you say. Incisive, perceptive, and logical to the point of joy and, bizarrely, relief.

But because you hold up a mirror to misogyny and sexism so effectively, I often come away hopping fucking mad.

Again.

It gets one in the pit of one's stomach, instantly and with an arrow so true, it's breathtaking.

If you are ever, ever, in a position, where you are on a podium with a microphone, please, please let me know. You could draw a crowd of thousands.

TheShadowyFeminist · 08/01/2021 16:46

There was a lot of references to 'living as a woman - whatever that means' which really should flag the problems with this bill.

I'm not confident FWS will get a win, maybe a smaller part might get a good outcome etc. IANAL so that's just my gut. But whatever happens it's been a very worthwhile exercise & has certainly clarified a lot which makes the looooong months/years of howling into the void make some sense. Scotgov were never going to concede anything on their aims, and it's been sheer hard graft that's opened up their shady dealings to the sunlight.

The Lamont Amendment is even more of a remarkable achievement with all this context. The 'progressive elite' thought they had it all in the bag & those 6 words are even more significant now. It's the mark of what's needed on everything Scotgov do from now on as they simply can't be trusted.

MichelleofzeResistance · 08/01/2021 16:49

Datun from one of my biggest heroes and teachers on this site, Blush Thank you. That means a lot. I've learned from the best here.

ArabellaScott · 08/01/2021 16:50

I don't see the battle here to turn everything everywhere mixed sex, I see it as wanting to preserve women's spaces in all things but male people can use them and be in them and part of them at will, whether or not female people consent or are negatively affected. It's the end of permitting female people any identity, space or right to group themselves without male presence and supervision as the subordination of females is part of this in not permitting them to be consulted or to refuse.

Well, that's cheered me right up. Could you not sugar the pill a bit, on a Friday afternoon, Michelle?!

I agree that that is what some sections want, for sure.

I also think that if the law follows the arguments to their logical conclusions they seem more likely to remove single sex exemptions and turn everything mixed sex.

Then again, you are correct when it comes to all the buildngs that now have 'all gender' toilets and 'male' toilets, and none for women. And it's only women's words and terms that have been erased in say, cancer awareness campaigns. And almost always, the people who have lost work/jobs/received death & rape threats, are women. Men tend not to get the witch-hunt. Which does definitely suggest the scenario you describe.

Fuck.

Datun · 08/01/2021 17:15

I don't see the battle here to turn everything everywhere mixed sex, I see it as wanting to preserve women's spaces in all things but male people can use them and be in them and part of them at will

That's exactly what it is. TRAs don't want mixed sex. What's the point of it?

They want single sex, but be able to enter the one they choose. Of course, it makes them mixed sex, but that's not how it's presented.

And yes, it results in subordination.

See Eddie Izzard girl mode and boy mode. It's a choice over whichever one gets the results he wants.

What is the benefit to women if they say they are in boy mode?

stumbledin · 08/01/2021 17:53

" ... a representative for the Scottish Government, Ruth Crawford QC, has said that the term “woman” as used in the legislation “was limited in its scope”, and not as a function of the Equality Act.

Ms Crawford said: “This definition of ‘women’ is only for use in this act, and not to create a definition in any other legal context.

“This 2018 act does not have applicability to whatever other legislation the Scottish Government may care to produce.”

www.eveningexpress.co.uk/news/scotland/legal-challenge-over-the-word-woman-concludes-at-court-of-session/

(So are they now trying to argue that in the instance of Gender Representation woman will mean one thing but for the purposes of the EA something different??!!)

" ... Judge Lady Wise concluded the submissions, saying: “This is an important and very difficult matter. I need to consider it all carefully and will take time to consider all the evidence and give a written opinion when I have reached a conclusion.” ... "

MerchedCymru · 08/01/2021 17:59

“This definition of ‘women’ is only for use in this act, and not to create a definition in any other legal context. This 2018 act does not have applicability to whatever other legislation the Scottish Government may care to produce.”

Jeez. Well it's out in the open at least. The Scottish Government does not accept that 'woman' means an adult human female except within the narrow confines of one specific piece of legislation. And they intend to change that.

If I was a female SNP voter I'd not be one any longer.

ArabellaScott · 08/01/2021 18:02

Judge Lady Wise - that's a great name for a judge. Let's hope nominatve determinism wins out.

I agree that TRAs don't want mixed sex, sure. My thinking was that in practise when these issues get debated in court that legal bods are likely to see 'mixed sex' or 'gender neutral' spaces as the easy way forward.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 08/01/2021 18:16

I'm curious, actually, whether the SNP noted the strength of feeling on the amendment for the forensic bill.

Given that that all their MSPs voted for the amendment, I'd say that they did. I think in future they will be more careful publicly, but a careful watch is needed on more behind the scenes things. It will be interesting to see what happens with the Scottish Census.

TheShadowyFeminist · 08/01/2021 18:31

I think in future they will be more careful publicly, but a careful watch is needed on more behind the scenes things.

This ☝️

The SNP just cannot be trusted.

teawamutu · 08/01/2021 18:34

I don't see the battle here to turn everything everywhere mixed sex, I see it as wanting to preserve women's spaces in all things but male people can use them and be in them and part of them at will

Yup. Or as I've seen it phrased (here, I think): denying some women any of the provisions or spaces they need, in order that a subset of males can select their preference from all the spaces.

teawamutu · 08/01/2021 18:35

@TheShadowyFeminist

I think in future they will be more careful publicly, but a careful watch is needed on more behind the scenes things.

This ☝️

The SNP just cannot be trusted.

Love that Wings is on to them, btw. Not in Scotland, or Scottish, but learning a lot and really enjoying all the people peaking.
PearPickingPorky · 08/01/2021 18:49

I don't see the battle here to turn everything everywhere mixed sex, I see it as wanting to preserve women's spaces in all things but male people can use them and be in them and part of them at will

Interestingly, this has been Engender and Scottish EHRC's position all along. That even with the Equality Act specifying sex, this NEVER meant sex (legal or biological), but only ever meant self-identified gender.

They obviously knew about this piece of legislation all along (or were involved in drafting it).

Bastards, the lot of them. Getting a sadistic thrill from conspiring to remove the legal protections that the most vulnerable women and girls depend on.

SusanSmithFWS · 08/01/2021 19:14

Hi all, thank you for all your efforts to raise awareness. Rather wrung out after the last two days, but there were some extraordinary things said today in court which, while they might not have ultimate bearing on the judgement, are frighteningly revealing about the position on Scottish Government.

TheShadowyFeminist · 08/01/2021 19:28

I agree Susan. Whether the case goes your way or not, there's no more hiding for the SNP or Sturgeon.

MerchedCymru · 08/01/2021 19:30

Great to see you on here Susan. Huge thanks for bringing this action - as you say it's been very revealing. A bit of sunlight shining in a very dark place. Appreciation to all at For Women Scot Flowers

ArabellaScott · 08/01/2021 19:30

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-55582302

BBC puts its usual spin on it. Angry

Thanks, SusanSmith, for all you do and have done. Amazing effort. Hope you have a chance to rest up now and recover.