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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Kier shows his colours

999 replies

averylongtimeago · 21/11/2020 09:50

From Facebook, I guess he has picked a side.
51% of the population just don't count.

Kier shows his colours
OP posts:
MaudTheInvincible · 23/11/2020 23:01

I was very pleased to see the letter from Labour Women too. I thought they made their points well, especially regarding the Karen Ingala Smith and her gut-wrenching Counting Dead Women project.

Still, I won't vote for them again until they extricate themselves from this stinking gynophobic mess.

turnitonagain · 23/11/2020 23:57

That's it isn't it? The young and queer have decided we're okay to descriminate against as we are all old, white and heteronormative. The reality is they have been told this mostly by older white men

This is where these threads always end up. White women are the REAL victims in society.

No matter what the larger issues with TRA are, complaining about a tweet when “we” didn’t get one is simply throwing a tantrum.

I assume all of you will be promoting the Women’s Remembrance Day on 25 Nov and you can think about those women who have been lost and their struggles. I wonder if a tweet would have saved their lives? Doubt it.

Quaagars · 24/11/2020 00:12

It also assumes that if you are old, white, and heteronormative then you can't possibly be in support of trans rights or a trans remembrance day.
It must be the fault of the silly blue haired teenagers.
Or something Hmm

Quaagars · 24/11/2020 00:13

heterosexual that should read

Impatiens · 24/11/2020 00:18

No matter what the larger issues with TRA are, complaining about a tweet when “we” didn’t get one is simply throwing a tantrum.

That isn't what pp are complaining about.

Quaagars · 24/11/2020 00:27

That isn't what pp are complaining about

There's been a fair few "why do they get a remembrance day when we don't?" posts on this very thread for starters

turnitonagain · 24/11/2020 00:39

The OP is literally complaining about the tweet showing KS to hate women. A man who in his career investigated FGM and grooming of girls by Asian gangs despite fears of being accused of racism or cultural insensitivity.

The real victims are victims of crime, many are women, many are men, some are trans.

turnitonagain · 24/11/2020 00:44

@Quaagars

It also assumes that if you are old, white, and heteronormative then you can't possibly be in support of trans rights or a trans remembrance day. It must be the fault of the silly blue haired teenagers. Or something Hmm
If they do it’s because they’re deluded. Because anyone who had half a brain would know trans rights means we’ll all be raped in the toilets by male criminals dressed as women. And this crime epidemic will not be punished, society will just allow it to happen en masse. Because we live in an anti-woman on the scale of the Islamic Republic of Iran.

That’s the general vibe in this corner of MN.

turnitonagain · 24/11/2020 00:44

*An anti-woman society

Impatiens · 24/11/2020 00:46

The OP is literally complaining about the tweet showing KS to hate women

'literally'? Where has it been said that the post shows Starmer hates women?

The complaint is that Starmer felt the need to be seen to mark Trans Remembrance', despite the very low figures for Trans deaths UK, while failing to note other very serious issues.

turnitonagain · 24/11/2020 00:57

What does “true colours” mean to you?

And again - does his career disappear into thin air because of the tweet?

BlackWaveComing · 24/11/2020 00:57

@Escapeplanning

Is Starmer going to put his neck on the line for what he'll see as older, white, 'conservative' women? He will not.

That's it isn't it? The young and queer have decided we're okay to descriminate against as we are all old, white and heteronormative. The reality is they have been told this mostly by older white men 😂

It's okay to be bigot. The old men told you it's ok, just direct your bigotry at women. That's certainly what happened in WEP.

The red wall will be blue forever more.

Well, of course, when the reality is women and girls of all ages, races, wealth, political affiliations and orientations are crying out for Labour to take women's rights seriously.
Quaagars · 24/11/2020 01:06

Starmer felt the need to be seen to mark Trans Remembrance', despite the very low figures for Trans deaths UK, while failing to note other very serious issues

Why the whataboutery? It was trans remembrance day. So stands to reason would mention that, not other serious issues, even if just as serious

Impatiens · 24/11/2020 01:07

@turnitonagain

What does “true colours” mean to you?

And again - does his career disappear into thin air because of the tweet?

'True colours' to me means the OP believes that Starmer has chosen to take a side in the issue of trans 'rights' v women's rights.

I don't understand the comment about his career, what do you mean?

Quaagars · 24/11/2020 01:08

And again - does his career disappear into thin air because of the tweet?

Probably not, because regardless of what's said on here, away from in here lots of people support trans people and have no problem with a day of remembrance being mentioned.
Even old white hetero people.

turnitonagain · 24/11/2020 01:16

@Impatiens As Director of Public Prosecutions he worked to improve investigation of rape and prioritised FGM as a prosecutable crime as no charges for FGM had ever been brought against anyone before his tenure.

I’d say he has a career that shows a commitment to reducing violence against women, including a crime that can only be committed against a female human woman - FGM. But the tweet is “true colours.” OK.

Mummyoflittledragon · 24/11/2020 04:57

[quote jj1968]@gardenbird48

It is not clear exactly where these crimes took place - some of them were definitely in women's single sex spaces.

Another lie. Not one of the crimes listed was committed in a single sex space.

Convictions/charged so far for 2020 of trans identified individuals - violent or sexual crimes = 23 inc. murder and rape.

And another lie. Four of the crimes listed did not involve violence. But more importantly, of those convicted of murder or a sexual offence only 5 identified as trans women. The rest were all men who reportedly crossdressed, who were tried as men in the courts.

Of those who identified as trans, one was a prisoner, currently on trial for murdering a fellow prisoner and notorious paedophile who has aaid they suffer from gender dysphoria, although they are being tried as a man. Two were convicted of possession of images of child sexual abuse and two for breaches of a sexual harm prevention order.

So if transcrime are correct not one single person who actually identifies as a trans woman was convicted of rape, or sexual assault, in 2020.[/quote]
Your post here has actually proved the point of why many women are so scared. Men, like these convicted men (and for clarity, I’m talking about those tried as men) do and will continue to gain access to female only spaces when cross dressing simply because as the stronger sex they can. Or even when not cross dressing. The bearded variety of “woman”, dressed in menswear springing to mind. It’s pretty standard as far as I’m aware for a drag Queen to use the women’s when “looking fishy” 🤢 afterall.

So just because these men were convicted as men, it doesn’t mean that they haven’t in the past claimed access to female only spaces. It really is not pertinent whether or not they were in female only spaces at the moment they were caught because we are talking here more globally about the erosion of women’s rights and how woman are viewed in general in certain sections of society. Because these are actually the men we are talking about. Men, who try on woman for a while, then attack women. Or even men, who try on woman all of the time but continue with the same male behaviour as ever before. But polarised in the hatred of women because they cannot be us.

We don’t want men, who try on what they think woman is for a while (or even all of the time) in our spaces. It makes them unsafe. We already know we are unsafe in the wider community. We just want a small space and safety away from these people when we are at our most vulnerable, please.

And before more is made of the point that these men were tried as men. Of course these men were convicted as men. They were hardly going to offer themselves on a platter à la Philip Bunce. They’re going to keep their mouths firmly shut on that one. Male privilege striking again.

I know I’m not explaining myself well and I do expect this post to be torn to pieces. I just want to reiterate what I already said upthread. Most women have no objection to the transwoman going quietly about her business. She has been around for donkeys years and understands our frailties and stands beside us. And when middle class white women call gender critical women transphobic, this is the type of transwoman these mc white women have in mind. It is they, who lack the education, not me.

Escapeplanning · 24/11/2020 07:46

This is where these threads always end up. White women are the REAL victims in society.

Is that what I said? It isn't is it?. I said that it's ok to discriminate.

It's currently ok to discriminate against men by using the sex exemptions, it's legal discrimination. Do you interpret this as men being the real victims of society because of female sex hospital ward exclusions?

Discrimination is possible without anyone becoming a victim. The word had a very different meaning to victim.

Escapeplanning · 24/11/2020 07:54

But the tweet is “true colours.” OK.

She's talking about this issue which people here have been following for a long time.

Many of us signed the declaration so we are waiting for a response. In that context it can be seen as true colours.

I've said before there is years of history here, things have happened and we are a way down the road on lots of actions offline.

Joining the conversation at this point and reading things out of context won't make any sense.

To the women who have been trying to be heard by CLPs for years it's an indication of true colours.

gardenbird48 · 24/11/2020 08:03

I wonder why Quaag et al are so keen for senior politicians in the uk to gaslight vulnerable teenagers and young people into thinking that their community is so persecuted that they are scared to step outside the front door.

It is having that effect on people so it is utterly irresponsible of Sir K to reinforce the message.
He has already made is views on women’s rights very clear by signing up to a twaw pledge (the only small comfort is that it was one that didn’t name a women’s rights groups as a hate group) but bring a lawyer he knows very well the implications of self id yet he supports it.

It is not sour grapes, it is despair at the level of cognitive dissonance at the top of the Labour Party. Personally I think the only national Remembrance Day (as acknowledged by the authorities) should be Remembrance Sunday - we should not forget the people that died and should not forget how Hitler came to power - I am seeing too many similarities in the activists playbook atm.

The recent call to remove human rights from people who ‘defend biology’ by Amnesty is taking us down a very sinister path.

Quaagars · 24/11/2020 08:18

I wonder why Quaag et al are so keen for senior politicians in the uk to gaslight vulnerable teenagers and young people into thinking that their community is so persecuted that they are scared to step outside the front door.

Aren't "GC" kind of trying to do the same thing, on here?
I mean, trying to terrify the living shit out of women by saying everyone is invading the women's toilets.
simply because as the stronger sex they can. Or even when not cross dressing. The bearded variety of “woman”, dressed in menswear springing to mind. It’s pretty standard as far as I’m aware for a drag Queen to use the women’s when “looking fishy” 🤢 afterall.

Only a couple of posts away - and referring to women as fishy (why? and where did drag come into it?) - what with becunted and fishy and other stuff on the thread, the only hyperbolic language and women insults seem to be coming from "GC" posters
Emotive language designed to instil fear.

Quaagars · 24/11/2020 08:20

I have never seen a drag queen in the women's bogs in all my 40 cough something years.
Although prepared to be told that actually they're in there a lot and I must have been asleep.

midgebabe · 24/11/2020 08:21

Because those things have happened already?

midgebabe · 24/11/2020 08:22

You have never seen is a crap argument isn't it?

It's the same thinking that leads to feminism failing certain groups of women because the women in charge hadn't seen the problems those other women faced

longestlurkerever · 24/11/2020 08:39

This kind of brings me back to my original post. Why, if these issues are as clear as day, do you think your message is only associated with "older, white, heteronormative women?" It's been said on here before that mumsnet is one of the only forums where these issues can be freely discussed, and yet the atmosphere on here is so volatile and hostile that I can't imagine anyone who isn't highly articulate/ educated and confident from sticking around. I'm not the only one who has made that point on this thread, or made the point that trans remembrance Day is a funny hill to die on in the battle for actually getting labour to change their position on self id. I think recognition of gender identity as s right - a facet of human dignity - as it were - is here to stay and we'd be better off working with that than railing against it if we want sex segregated spaces to be mainstream policy.

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