Kier shows his colours

[averylongtimeago]

From Facebook, I guess he has picked a side.
51% of the population just don't count.

Why not a Remembrance day for all the women who have died due to childbirth

We'd have non women on our backs in seconds, taking it upon themselves to rebrand the day 'Individuals who had a vagina and had pushed a baby out of said vagina and died as a result remembrance day'.

They've already shown they won't let sensitive topics like death, miscarriage, infertility and stillbirth get in the way of them giving women a good verbal kicking.

And I have a sinking feeling that despite just having transgender awareness week, and a trans remembrance day, they'll still manage to make International Day for the Elimination of Violence Against Women all about transwomen and how they're the most oppressed, persecuted, murdered group the world has ever seen so should be centred on the day, and the boring old natal women should shut up and stop weaponizing their trauma. We've seen it happen plenty of times already, I'm dreading it.

I am not conflating anything. I think that's what some posts on here do,though. I'm sure we can all agree that male threats to rape and kill are not ok. Surely there's a spectrum between "quietly going about their business often on the side of natal women herself" and "male threats to rape and kill and wipe us off the earth" though.

I know there have since been obituaries in mainstream media for Jan Morris - thank you to the posters who highlighted these.

However, Jan died on the morning of Trans Remembrance Day and I'd have expected far more comment on social media at the time.
UK TRAs were apparently too busy using the day to stir up fear and hatred to bother acknowledging Jan's actual death and remembering the life of a significant and famous British trans woman.

Guides and office loos can be inclusive of trans women

Why do you think safeguarding should go out the window for certain men but not others?

Being trans is a protected characteristic too so really it's not ok to say that trans people just have to lump living in a binary world or always be "othered" and viewed as a threat.

Gender reassignment as a protected characteristic means you should not be treated different from others of the same sex so transwomen should not be treated differently to other men. They are not ‘viewed as a threat’ they are viewed as men and the same risks to privacy, safety and dignity that men present.

@Floisme

Actually I don't agree with spineless. I think it's more that he's cautious, hard to read and picks his battles and when to start them. At some point he'll have to show his hand, but there was no way he was ever going to do that either during a leadership election or on a day of remembrance.

I hope you are right and will continue to flip flop on giving him the benefit of the doubt in my own head :) He needs to speak up soon though.... This Wednesday would be the perfect time to send a strong message www.unwomen.org/en/what-we-do/ending-violence-against-women/take-action/16-days-of-activism

Yes he does. I have much more of an issue with the way he's kept quiet (at least in public) over Rosie Duffield's treatment than I have with that nothing of a tweet. He clearly doesn't see this as a priority.

It is interesting that the death of Jan Morris didn't have more coverage isn't it? Is it because Jan just went about her life quietly, successfully and happily as a transwoman, which doesn't fit a certain narrative?

I am very interested to see what all these politicians, police forces and journalists have in store for Wednesday

@Tanith

I know there have since been obituaries in mainstream media for Jan Morris - thank you to the posters who highlighted these.

However, Jan died on the morning of Trans Remembrance Day and I'd have expected far more comment on social media at the time.
UK TRAs were apparently too busy using the day to stir up fear and hatred to bother acknowledging Jan's actual death and remembering the life of a significant and famous British trans woman.

Ah, sorry, I see what you mean. Yes if it were really about remembrance rather than creating an impression of trans people being particularly unsafe in the UK (and often implying that GC feminists are to blame for this) you would have thought it was the perfect opportunity.

Front page of the times and a bit on R4.

But then Jan did some pretty amazing things on their life. So I want to hear about climbing with Hillary etc.

longest if you posted your thoughts (e.g. 10.01 on the previous page) on pretty much any other forum you would most likely be deleted, banned or subjected to an avalanche of abuse and baseball bat memes. Whether you like it or not, you are 'on the wrong side of history' so you may as well pull up a chair.

I do agree that this is a more impatient place than it was when I first started lurking and posting. But times were different then. In fact some of the most helpful, patient and best informed posters I remember have been banned. I think that in itself tells you a lot.

Gender reassignment as a protected characteristic means you should not be treated different from othersof the same sexso transwomen should not be treated differently to other men

That is not how the protected characteristic of gender reassignment works. The example in the link has a trans man as the person being discriminated against but it would be the same if it had been a trans woman.

www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-courts/discrimination/what-are-the-different-types-of-discrimination/direct-discrimination/

Babdoc
Maybe because it's against talk guidelines to troll hunt if you did?
Might just have something to do with it!
Oh and people with a different opinion aren't trolls, even if you can't take people disagreeing.

Surely there's a spectrum between "quietly going about their business often on the side of natal women herself" and "male threats to rape and kill and wipe us off the earth" though

Agree

Quaggars, a troll is not “someone with a different opinion”. A troll is someone who engages in bad faith to disrupt a discussion, while producing no valid arguments and being impervious to reason.

As I said, if the cap fits...!

[quote DidoLamenting]Gender reassignment as a protected characteristic means you should not be treated different from othersof the same sexso transwomen should not be treated differently to other men

That is not how the protected characteristic of gender reassignment works. The example in the link has a trans man as the person being discriminated against but it would be the same if it had been a trans woman.

www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-courts/discrimination/what-are-the-different-types-of-discrimination/direct-discrimination/[/quote]
Yes it is: a man with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment (transwoman) must not be treated differently to a man without that protected characteristic.

I am not talking about individuals with a GRC.

[quote DidoLamenting]Gender reassignment as a protected characteristic means you should not be treated different from othersof the same sexso transwomen should not be treated differently to other men

That is not how the protected characteristic of gender reassignment works. The example in the link has a trans man as the person being discriminated against but it would be the same if it had been a trans woman.

www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-courts/discrimination/what-are-the-different-types-of-discrimination/direct-discrimination/[/quote]
I'm afraid you have misunderstood. The salesperson case is illustrating the protected characteristic of Gender reassignment and sex doesn't come into it. The person is being treated differently because of Gender Reassignment and as you say the same would apply to a transwoman so it is their status as transgender which is in play, not their sex.

Having the pc of Gender Reassignment does not confer the rights of the 'acquired sex' on the person.

A more relevant example is where a transwoman claimed discrimination after a client requested a female HCP for intimate care and the transwoman was redirected to another job. As the transwoman is biologically and legally male, the comparator in this case was another male so therefore the transwoman was being treated in the same way as another male so there was no discrimination.

although why on earth any HCP would take a company to court because a particular client had requested not to have them for personal care I don't know

Quaggars, a troll is not “someone with a different opinion

Exactly lol
You see anyone with a differing view as "bad faith discussion" though which is your lookout, really.
All the 'go away, can't you leave feminists to talk amongst themselves?" crap to another poster upthread from other posters - who made this board the Feminist GateKeeping?
As I said, if you agree women should have autonomy of their own bodies/be allowed abortions, are against FGM, but disagree on trans issues, why does that suddenly make you not a feminist?
Or do you all mean only the "right type" of feminist?

Er , no the protection is not to be discriminated because of being trans. In the case of the salesperson I never said it had anything to do with sex. The discrimination is because the employer did not want a person who is trans doing the job. It's the same as if the employer did not want a homosexual person doing the job.

If 3 people apply for a job and 1 is a natal man, 1 is a natal woman and 1 is a trans woman and if the trans woman despite being the best candidate is not selected over the other 2 simply because they are trans the comparitor is the other 2 are not trans - their sex isn't the issue.

A troll is someone who engages in bad faith to disrupt a discussion, while producing no valid arguments and being impervious to reason.

Indeed....

I disagree with the poster upthread who thinks they are the FWR police (it was also happening on the thread about Jan Morris).

I totally welcome differing opinions on this issue, and want to engage with people who have a different opinion to me on it, not least because it helps me to continue to form my own thoughts which you can't do in an echo chamber. However I also expect those people to be able to back up what they are saying, which is the part that is often lacking!

I don't think it's as straightforward as that because I think the supreme court see part of the protection of the characteristic as being a right to have your gender recognised. Lady Hale: . “We lead women’s lives: we have no choice”. Thus has the Chief Justice of
Canada, the Rt Hon Beverley McLachlin, summed up the basic truth that women
and men do indeed lead different lives. How much of this is down to unquestionable
biological differences, how much to social conditioning, and how much to other
people’s views of what it means to be a woman or a man, is all debateable and the
accepted wisdom is perpetually changing. But what does not change is the
importance, even the centrality, of gender in any individual’s sense of self. Over the
centuries many people, but particularly women, have bitterly resented and fought
against the roles which society has assigned to their gender. Genuine equality
between the sexes is still a work in progress. But that does not mean that such women
or men have not felt entirely confident that they are indeed a woman or a man.
Gender dysphoria is something completely different - the overwhelming sense that
one has been born into the wrong body, with the wrong anatomy and the wrong
physiology. Those of us who, whatever our occasional frustrations with the
expectations of society or our own biology, are nevertheless quite secure in the
gender identities with which we were born, can scarcely begin to understand how it
must be to grow up in the wrong body and then to go through the long and complex
process of adapting that body to match the real self. But it does not take much
imagination to understand that this is a deeply personal and private matter; that a
person who has undergone gender reassignment will need the whole world to
recognise and relate to her or to him in the reassigned gender; and will want to keep
to an absolute minimum any unwanted disclosure of the history. This is not only
because other people can be insensitive and even cruel; the evidence is that
transphobic incidents are increasing and that transgender people experience high
levels of anxiety about this. It is also because of their deep need to live successfully
and peacefully in their reassigned gender, something which non-transgender people
can take for granted."

@DidoLamenting

Er , no the protection is not to be discriminated because of being trans. In the case of the salesperson I never said it had anything to do with sex. The discrimination is because the employer did not want a person who is trans doing the job. It's the same as if the employer did not want a homosexual person doing the job.

If 3 people apply for a job and 1 is a natal man, 1 is a natal woman and 1 is a trans woman and if the trans woman despite being the best candidate is not selected over the other 2 simply because they are trans the comparitor is the other 2 are not trans - their sex isn't the issue.

I'm not quite sure of the point that you are making. Aesop was responding to a point that is mainly relevant when talking about access to single sex spaces (where Sex would be the relevant pc).

Gender reassignment as a pc is mostly relevant in employment, provision of general (where sex isn't relevant) situations as you mention. So when I looked it up I found one case of discrimination brought based on the pc of Gender reassignment and a person in the workplace was being bullied on the basis of their transgender status.

I think the original original post was referring to the 'nice' transwomen' being allowed to access female office toilets and girl guides which would be based on sex and therefore not discriminatory to exclude transwomen from female only spaces (despite what Stonewall etc would have you believe).

Anyway, I wonder what flag we should choose for Keir Starmer to wave for women that have suffered from violence next Wednesday??

Any thoughts? Suffragette colours? Who'd have thought that we needed them in this day and age?? I'd like a nice long video from Angela R. as well. (actually maybe not)

provision of general services!! Not ball waxing.

this is a deeply personal and private matter; that a
person who has undergone gender reassignment will need the whole world to recognise and relate to her or to him in the reassigned gender.

This is the fundamental flaw. An apparently private matter needs the whole world's recognition?

Do you think there are contradictory expectations here?

Identity may well be private but your sex is visible. If you are signalling your private matter and expecting recognition of it by the whole world it's not private.

Your sex can't be private because we can see it.
Lady Hale speaks in riddles

Gender dysphoria is a red herring because a while back it became mainstream in the gender identity ideology that it is not necessary to suffer from this to be trans and now to suggest that it is will often get strong push-back from trans activists.

If you're talking about being inclusive to trans people, you're being inclusive to cross-dressers who have their own motivations and people whose entire "womanhood" is them stating "I feel like I'm a woman". Forget about people suffering from gender dysphoria, they are a detail in a much bigger issue.