Do you think men should be allowed to wear skirts?

[ciarafoley97]

This was brought up by an article I read in the DailyMail (www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-8847579/Straight-married-father-three-reveals-hes-worn-skirts-high-heels-day-four-years.html)

Some would say the fact that people think it's ridiculous for men to wear feminine clothing but the reverse isn't true is because the patriarchy sees women as being inferior to men. Therefore in a true gender egalitarian society, clothes would have no gender.

What about dating prospects? Would you date a man who wore skirts/high heels?

Never been subtly implied to be MRA-adjacent before!

I'm treating the thread as a conversation not an essay; my usual conversational style isn't limited to one register. Sorry I'm not using academic-enough language for you.

On the pull is a colloquialism that means "hoping to secure a sexual partner". It's ordinary and unremarkable language used by a very wide spectrum of people. If it's literally just my choice of words you're objecting to, then can we skip the derail and focus on the content?

“Allowed” is an interesting word choice.

Minors do indeed have their behaviors to an extent controlled by parents and teachers. That is, boys may indeed not be “allowed” to wear skirts by parental control over purchasing decisions or dress codes in schools. Parents may also abuse children physically or verbally to ensure compliance with gender norms.

At any age, peers and dress codes at work may seek to control the gendered behavior of men. To an extent as we live in a capitalist society no decision can be completely free if the ability to survive depends on it. That’s why feminists argue many women wear makeup or heels mostly because they have to. Same goes for men’s dress codes.

Nevertheless there is no law prohibiting anyone wearing any specific piece of clothing - only norms and financial coercion.

In terms of should they be allowed (original question) I think absolutely yes, and we should strive towards broader acceptance of gender nonconformity in general. Unlike some here I have no problem with drag queens - in principle they are just men in exaggerated feminine attire.

I live up the road from three universities and a couple of arts districts so I see a wide variety of self-expression through clothing choices/style every day. Some people look great in skirts/dresses regardless of gender, others not so much, IMO. It’s like any type of clothing.

I did see some pairs of hairy, knobbly-kneed legs under floaty dresses this summer and didn’t think it was their best look- but that was the individual, not the clothing.

Oh my god i love klaus...its the eyeliner

And robert sheehan

Klaus is obviously the compleat arsehole, but Robert Sheehan has the most incredibly beautiful eyes. It's a killer combination.

Yes a very few men will publicly taboo-break for the non-sexual fashion hell of it. They are almost invariably pop stars or celeb figures with plenty of social status and room to manoeuvre socially in this way, not Mike in Accounts

Haven't you ever met a student? They might like to think they're all celebrities, but I think they'd admit in a pinch that it's not strictly true.

Robert Sheehan has the most incredibly beautiful eyes. It's a killer combination

yep

Hes so pretty 😀

You know, I'm sure you're right but I literally cannot ever remember seeing a male student in a skirt in my days as a student or in my day working at a university or working or living near universities and colleges. Except when they were doing drag on a pub crawl which is rather the opposite point. So I would still argue that it's very few men indeed.

@TyroTerf

Never been subtly implied to be MRA-adjacent before!

I'm treating the thread as a conversation not an essay; my usual conversational style isn't limited to one register. Sorry I'm not using academic-enough language for you.

On the pull is a colloquialism that means "hoping to secure a sexual partner". It's ordinary and unremarkable language used by a very wide spectrum of people. If it's literally just my choice of words you're objecting to, then can we skip the derail and focus on the content?

Really- is that what on the pull means? Thank you for enlightening me. I still think it's an odd choice of words for a feminist to use. As to whether it's "unremarkable" I think that's rather a subjective assessment. So far as "on the game" ? Sounds like something the police in ITV's The Bill might have used.

So far as it being a derail I think it's pertinent in the context of signals given out by clothes. I'd have used something far more neutral for young women glammed up- probably something like " dressed up for a night on the town". I can't imagine any circumstances where I would describe a woman as dressed for being "on the game". That's grim.

So far as men wearing skirts the frequent references to sarongs etc being fine in non- Western cultures are fine are irrelevant. It's a bit like saying many women in India wear saris and some Indian women do in the UK. Doesn't mean it would be no big deal for white women in the UK to wear them.

The notion that men in western society can wear a skirt is literally true but to do so would require a big change in cultural attitudes from other men themselves not treating it as a display of sissiness and some women not assuming there is some ulterior, sexual motive. Given some of the comments on here the lack of an ulterior sexual motive looks like a high bar to clear.

As to whether it's "unremarkable" I think that's rather a subjective assessment. I agree. I find it quite judgemental about sex workers. Also agree with the statement about MRA, judging women.

Ah - yes, I quite deliberately used a phrase that means "seeking a sexual partner" because I was specifically referring to women going out with that intention.

Women dressed up for a night in the town might have the subtext "seeking sex" where you are, but where I live, that phrasing covers a much wider group of women existing in public. Their intentions lie in the general region of merriment with friends, not sex-seeking behaviour.

If you think that explanation makes your choice of words better - it doesn't. I can't imagine looking at a woman and thinking "she's on the pull". I'm almost intrigued- what does this look like?

Still, at least you're not trying to defend "on the game".

@Antibles. I think styles have changed a lot recently though. I can walk to a campus from my house and have seen outfits that I wouldn’t see even three to five years ago. Everything from the slouchy sweatpants/messy hair look to artful makeup and a skirt.

I'm not saying I am making judgements about women's intentions based on their clothing, no.

I'm saying some women make clothing choices which they feel are appropriate for the context in which they are mate-seeking.

I have no desire to argue with someone whose reading comprehension is poor, however.

As for "on the game", this is how women who are prostituted have described themselves to me. Is their colloquial language unacceptable to you?

It isn't her reading comprehension which is poor. It is that the writing is offensive.

As for "on the game", this is how women who are prostituted have described themselves to me. Is their colloquial language unacceptable to you?

It's quite a different matter for the women concerned to use that expression for themselves. (Although I can't recall any of posters who were /are involved in the sex- trade ever saying they were "on the game") The use of it in such a flippant manner by someone who presumably thinks of herself as a feminist on a forum which regularly discusses the abuse of women via prostitution is disgraceful.

There's a current thread on sex work- I don't think anyone has used that expression.

So far as my lack of reading comprehension, it's fine. I'm perfectly capable of reading your offensive posts.

@TyroTerf

Not at all, Dido - I'm saying the man who chooses to wear a skirt in our culture is signalling something whether he consciously intends to or not.

He may simply wish to fuck with others' expectations and do his bit to degender skirts. Kurt Cobain was an excellent example of this, with his dresses that were female-coded but did not carry connotations of sexiness.

He may also be choosing to use his sartorial choices to signal submissive-degraded-sexy, which in our culture is associated with the female. I have a horrible feeling this may be what Brian Molko was doing, and have no intention of destroying my teenage dreams by trying to verify this.

The garment may be objectively neutral, but it is loaded with cultural meanings.

I tend to think performers are not really a useful guide as far as clothing norms go. performers have always worn attention getting and bizarre clothes, and often it's not all that meaningful.

What strikes me however with this is that even if "skirts" became coded gender neutral, the same kind of men that wear them now, be it for shock value, or some sexual reason, or attention, would just choose some other item of clothing or make-up or adornment associated with women. As long there are cultural markers associated with sex there is a way to accomplish that - and I think there is exactly zero chance there ever won't be.

@DidoLamenting

If you think that explanation makes your choice of words better - it doesn't. I can't imagine looking at a woman and thinking "she's on the pull". I'm almost intrigued- what does this look like?

Still, at least you're not trying to defend "on the game".

I have to say, I don't find that odd. When I was a young private in the army, it wasn't particularly uncommon for young women, or young men, to go out to the clubs or mess at night with the explicit intent of a one night stand. To a certain extent it was also true when I was living at university.

There was a pretty specific way to go about this, including wearing a certain type of club-ware, flirting, dancing, the woman being bought drinks by the interested male, and so forth - it was all what a social anthropologist might call a mating ritual.

I suppose maybe they weren't being properly feminist in all thins, but I doubt they'd have cared.

As for "on the game", this is how women who are prostituted have described themselves to me. Is their colloquial language unacceptable to you?

It's odd. I've worked with sex workers in two countries in various settings. I've never heard one describe it like that.

Although I have heard various people describe themselves in ways I wouldn't. It's often to diffuse possible racism/homophobia and it's not for me to confirm they were right to assume that.

Where whatever you want. Clothing doesn't have a gender.

Jamie Fraser and Jesus wore them.

Plus, all those Roman soldiers.

Nobody should wear heels, IMO...they are bad for your feet.

I have no desire to wear a skirt, although I do wear nail varnish occasionally (straight, 'cis' guy). I've spent half my life into bands like Nirvana and NIN, etc, so seeing men wearing nail varnish is normal to my eyes.

Society says men shouldn't wear skirts or nail varnish, but then society also thought Brexit and Boris Johnson were good ideas.

@Antibles

You know, I'm sure you're right but I literally cannot ever remember seeing a male student in a skirt in my days as a student or in my day working at a university or working or living near universities and colleges. Except when they were doing drag on a pub crawl which is rather the opposite point. So I would still argue that it's very few men indeed.

Yes, in the UK male crossdressing has always been cloaked in humour, but it's VERY popular. At Sheffield Hallam there used to be a wildly popular freshers' event called Pajama Jump, in which female students paraded through the streets in pajamas (usually fairly modest) and male students cross-dressed in full-on lingerie, make up and wigs. It was stopped because the students got too drunk/raucous and the community complained, but the straight boys absolutely LOVED the socially-sanctioned opportunity to cut loose and cross dress.

See also: stag nights & sports tours. Everyone loves a Dame. Etc.

These threads always follow a certain course. You get certain posters - I won't name names - wading in with an inflated sense of moral outrage, presuming to act as arbiters of which instances of male skirt-wearing are morally acceptable. Their judgements beg the question: men are "allowed" to wear the skirts that they are "allowed" to wear in their culture. And the bottom line is that women are "allowed" to wear sexualised clothing but men are not. But there is never any logical explanation given for why this should be the case, beyond the moral outrage and personal offence taken by those posters.

These posters seem unable to refrain from projecting personal baggage onto male strangers in the public eye. They seem to have an obsessive preoccupation with the assumed sexual gratification of strange men, even when such is entirely speculative, the men's conduct is entirely legal and the clothes are no different to what many ordinary women wear in ordinary contexts (pencil skirts, heels, even fishnet tights). I'm not talking leather chaps and collars.

This is such a weird question. Men have always worn skirts, in specific contexts.

@McSilkson

These threads always follow a certain course. You get certain posters - I won't name names - wading in with an inflated sense of moral outrage, presuming to act as arbiters of which instances of male skirt-wearing are morally acceptable. Their judgements beg the question: men are "allowed" to wear the skirts that they are "allowed" to wear in their culture. And the bottom line is that women are "allowed" to wear sexualised clothing but men are not. But there is never any logical explanation given for why this should be the case, beyond the moral outrage and personal offence taken by those posters.

These posters seem unable to refrain from projecting personal baggage onto male strangers in the public eye. They seem to have an obsessive preoccupation with the assumed sexual gratification of strange men, even when such is entirely speculative, the men's conduct is entirely legal and the clothes are no different to what many ordinary women wear in ordinary contexts (pencil skirts, heels, even fishnet tights). I'm not talking leather chaps and collars.

Cross dressing isn't speculative. It's very, very common. And it utterly relies on women. Without women, there would be nothing to fetishise. Without validation, which has to involve women, their spaces, and society's attitude towards them, it wouldn't exist.