Transinclusive feminists, please help me understand.

[thinkingaboutLangCleg]

Genuine question. I recognise that some men suffer from gender dysphoria or truly believe they were meant to be women, and some want to live out their fantasies. So I understand why they want access to women’s single-sex spaces and facilities, to validate themselves.

I understand why they want language and culture changed to include them in the category of women.

Some men will take advantage for personal gain (eg taking ‘women’s officer’ roles or sports prizes), or to harass women and girls in intimate spaces eg toilets, or to be transferred from a male to a female prison. Women and girls lose out, obviously, with no corresponding gains to compensate.

I can understand that women who aren’t feminists may not be concerned about the effects on women and girls.

But how does a feminist reconcile her feminism — centring women’s rights and needs, including the right to privacy and safety —with supporting transwomen’s actions that necessarily impinge on these?

This is a genuine question, as I wonder if I’m missing or misunderstanding something.

MrsKypp, separating bathrooms by chromosomes is ridiculous.

It was just an example of how ‘liberation of women’ isn’t the same as ‘equality of the sexes’, and how if feminism becomes the former definition examples like the above wouldn’t become something of relevance (but they would if it was about ‘equality of the sexes’.

You aren’t making any sense. Why would women and men need equal access to screening and treatment for prostate cancer? And why would you specifically want a woman to advocate for patients with prostate cancer? Wouldn’t a survivor or a specialist oncologist be better qualified and more likely to achieve better results for the men who need that advocacy?

Anyway, 2 on Merriam Webster looks pretty ‘mumsnetty’, doesn’t it?

Well retain the single sex exemptions for staters.

I’ve not yet spoken to another bloke who even knows this is going on. It seems to me largely to be liberal feminists advocating for trans rights and women like Kamala Harris, whose recent success most women seem to be rejoicing over.

MrsKypp, separating bathrooms by chromosomes is ridiculous.

You do what you like with your bathroom. We are talking about public toilets. Male and female. You are the only ridiculous person talking about chromosomes.

You say bloke, we say transwoman.

Why would women and men need equal access to screening and treatment for prostate cancer? And why would you specifically want a woman to advocate for patients with prostate cancer?

This is just whataboutery/faux naivety intended to derail.

My point is that doing things that clearly harm men as a group is against the originally stated goal of ‘equality of the sexes’ but not directly against the goal of ‘the liberation of woman’. For many this is rather convenient.

I’ve not yet spoken to another bloke who even knows this is going on.

Really? Maybe it’s you not speaking to them rather than them not knowing?

My husband peaked way before I did because of Fallon Fox. All the blokiest blokes I know are aware of the problem due to a combo of sport and Joe Rogan.

You say bloke, we say transwoman.

I wasn’t referring to transwomen. I have never spoken to a transwoman.

Really? Maybe it’s you not speaking to them rather than them not knowing?

I’m in logistics management. Most truck drivers don’t know much about (or are interested in) identity politics. Most of my mates are reasonably intelligent but we don’t discuss trans issues and I don’t think many really have much interest in it. Most women don’t even seem that interested tbh outside of mumsnet. Never gets discussed in AIBU either really (unless it’s a strategic post by a FWR regular).

@LordLancington

Why would women and men need equal access to screening and treatment for prostate cancer? And why would you specifically want a woman to advocate for patients with prostate cancer?

This is just whataboutery/faux naivety intended to derail.

My point is that doing things that clearly harm men as a group is against the originally stated goal of ‘equality of the sexes’ but not directly against the goal of ‘the liberation of woman’. For many this is rather convenient.

Whataboutery?

It was you who bought up prostate cancer up on the feminist chat board, not me! 🤦‍♀️🤣

Feminist activism is not about and has never been about achieving ‘equality‘ with men.

For British women to be equal to British men two of us would have to beat our male partners to death every week.

Betty!

@Joswis

MrsKypp, separating bathrooms by chromosomes is ridiculous.

There's more to it than just chromosomes, obviously!

e.g. genitalia, muscle mass, hormones, level of aggression, physical size, physical strength, power of voice, hair growth, body shape

etc etc etc etc etc

but you knew that of course.

Why would women working on their own liberation issues waste their time stopping prostrate treatment?

For British women to be equal to British men two of us would have to beat our male partners to death every week.

And 80 of you would have to commit suicide.

Two women a week is 0.000005% of the female population. I’m not sure how you think men are supposed to stop two murderers every week out of many many million men? Each individual case is undoubtedly extremely harrowing, but it’s a bit of a stretch to use it as an argument to beat men with, when it’s significantly less common than choking to death on your food, for example.

@Escapeplanning

But most of the time you cant really sex someone, you can make a guess at their sex, but its usually based on gender signifiers.

I can only laugh at this.

Escapeplanning I agree. It's one of the silliest things I've read on here. I'm mystified what point tinofshirtbread is trying to make with the purse dropping stories.

The idea that you can't tell someone's sex most of the time without gender signifiers is patently nonsense.

Catching up as always.

People on here have never heard of female liberation before? As a thing?

Wow history gets wiped fucking quick doesn't it.

This thread is interesting to say the least!

When I was a 12 year-old new to having periods, I'd have truly hated it if boys or transgirls (is that the term for the under 18s) had been allowed in the girls' loos.

It was embarrassing enough

I'm much older than that now and still wouldn't like male bodied people in a public toilet meant for women and girls.

I’ve not yet spoken to another bloke who even knows this is going on.

we don’t discuss trans issues and I don’t think many really have much interest in it.

So you admit, just aren’t speaking about it and you don’t know if they have any interest in it or not because you haven’t spoken about it?

Joe Rogan, Douglas Murray, Brendan O’Neil, James Lindsay, Andrew Doyle, Graham Linehan, Zuby, Glenn Greenwald, Dave Chapelle, Paul Emery, Laurence Fox, Bill Maher, James Dreyfus, John Cleese, Gad Saad, Piers Morgan, Ben Elton, Ricky Gervais. All chaps, from all over the political spectrum, all speaking out about it/writing stuff about it.

But yeah, keep thinking it’s just a few angry old cat ladies on Mumsnet if you prefer. Keep worrying that the liberation of women will result in men becoming the underdog and you not getting your prostate screened due to something some Australian minister said a decade ago.

Most women are actually quite invested in living peacefully with men y’know. We have sons, brothers, friends, fathers, uncles and some of us even have GASP male sexual partners.

But we’re also entitled to use our time and money however we see fit and to designate and enforce our own boundaries, largely thanks to second wave feminism.
Feminism is for the benefit of female people.

All that choosy-choice, empowerment, equality shit is third wave liberal feminism, but it’s becoming clear that was a pointless tangent.

We’re going back to good old fashioned Spare Rib style LIBERATION 🥳

Catching up more...

Seems that the whole 'women's lib' thing was a figment of the imagination then?

This is really chilling

'Two women a week is 0.000005% of the female population. I’m not sure how you think men are supposed to stop two murderers every week out of many many million men? Each individual case is undoubtedly extremely harrowing, but it’s a bit of a stretch to use it as an argument to beat men with, when it’s significantly less common than choking to death on your food, for example.'

Maybe us silly wimms imagined the whole thing?

Yes. His lordship has gone full on MRA.
All pretence of niceties gone. Poof! ⚡️☁️

Reminds me of Jane Fae and the ‘eggshell skulls’ comment.

The 2 a week isn’t total femicides, anyway, I was specifically referencing the average number of women killed by their own intimate partners. It’s spiked this year, sadly.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-51491021

femicidescensus.org/

Who wants ‘equality’ when equality means making things even shitter for everyone? More murdered men and more fatally suicidal women is not a desirable outcome.

Reminds me of a long ago ex boyfriend who told me that he wouldn’t be so fucking miserable about the job he absolutely hated if I had a job I hated too.
What an absolute bellend he was.

BettyDuKeiraBellisMyShero and Rod Liddle, Ben Shapiro , Jordan Peterson and Stuart Campbell (Wings over Scotland)