Transinclusive feminists, please help me understand.

[thinkingaboutLangCleg]

Genuine question. I recognise that some men suffer from gender dysphoria or truly believe they were meant to be women, and some want to live out their fantasies. So I understand why they want access to women’s single-sex spaces and facilities, to validate themselves.

I understand why they want language and culture changed to include them in the category of women.

Some men will take advantage for personal gain (eg taking ‘women’s officer’ roles or sports prizes), or to harass women and girls in intimate spaces eg toilets, or to be transferred from a male to a female prison. Women and girls lose out, obviously, with no corresponding gains to compensate.

I can understand that women who aren’t feminists may not be concerned about the effects on women and girls.

But how does a feminist reconcile her feminism — centring women’s rights and needs, including the right to privacy and safety —with supporting transwomen’s actions that necessarily impinge on these?

This is a genuine question, as I wonder if I’m missing or misunderstanding something.

Are you even reading my posts JJ?! I've not said anything about predatory gay men and I have no idea why you keep saying that. What I said was that many different groups experience sexual violence. One of those groups is women. One of those groups is transwomen. One of those groups is gay men. One of those groups is straight cis men etc etc. Victims of sexual violence have many things in common and I am not dismissing the experiences of transwomen, but that doesn't mean that this violence is rooted in the exact same cause for every group and it doesn't make sexual violence against all of these different groups the remit of feminism. Sexual violence against transwomen is horrific, but it isn't happening to them because they're women. That's the point. Male sexual violence again all groups of people is a human rights issue. Male sexual violence against women is a feminist issue. Feminists don't campaign for all people, we just campaign for women, against things that are happening to us because we're women. I will gladly campaign in whatever way I can to stop male violence against transwomen, but that doesn't make it feminism.

@midgebabe

People can judge sex very accurately and very quickly so sex separation works very well indeed. It's based on movement and smell rather than face or clothes apparently

This just isn't true I'm afraid. Some people are good at spotting it, many aren't and in lots of cases people aren't sure. I got mistaken for a girl constantly back in my androgynous glam rock days when I was younger, by both men and women, much more than I pass these days ironically when I'm actively presenting as femme. And hormones change how you smell btw so that wouldn;t work either for a lot of trans people.

Are we on jjs agendas again? What a surprise.

@TyroTerf

Oh, tinof, I was nodding along to it all, until that very last paragraph!

The lie isn't that we're a word that means female people. The lie is that because we're female we must be feminine.

You've done some excellent scissor word but you've done it in ever so slightly the wrong place.

They say: female -> woman -> feminine. You've snipped it at the first point. You've cut off the word that means female human person. Babies and bathwater spring to mind.

Feminism makes the cut at the second point, not the first.

Thats what feminism has been trying to do for years, and its got us here.

Set the trans stuff to one side.

Men extract money out of the bodies of female people on a scale that has never been seen before in human history. Prostitution and commercial sexual exploitation is out of control and surrogacy is a horror show.

Feminism has been trying to stop women=feminine, but the problem is that you cant. because gender is defined by those with power and those who have power are men. Men define what women are based on their collective labour need is, and demarcate "feminine" in that way. So for example, computer coding was "feminine" when it was a boring routine typing job, but once it became prestigious and well paid it stopped being feminine.

This is precisely where feminism has been going wrong, they go along with the "female=woman". But woman is how female people are revealed to the world as people who are powerful and therefore need to be controlled. And gender is how that is done.

The charity supporting girls where they are having a bad time is an interesting example.

Say you have hypothetically a region where all the boys go to school and none of the girls. (Yes I know there are places where this happens).

You want to raise money to help.

Currently the word girl is used because of this sort of dual thing that's going on. Things are moving fast though.

How would the fund raising be worded when the language changes that are happening become more compulsory.

You can't describe them as girls because you've not spoken to all of them and some may have a different internal gender ID.

You can't call them menstruators because they are prepubescent.

You can't call them ovary owners, vagina havers, large gamete producers because as we have been told, you can't make any assumptions about what anything boys or girls have due to the existence of DSDs and... stuff.

Female is also problematic and on the way out, we're told. Even calling girls 'females' is a bit not good as MRAs are very fond of calling us 'females' it's reminiscent of nature documentaries.

So what do you call them?

Or is it so fraught that you just say ok 50% of children in X are denied an education.

I said this some years ago and a chap who liked to argue with me said that's just bollocks. Everyone knows what these words mean that won't change.

Many are still hanging onto this hope even while in loads of police forces in England, as an example, they have been recording crime stats by stated gender and not sex, for years.

The idea that it's all about being nice to a small group of nice people and won't really affect much (for women and girls at least) is just hopelessly naive.

So for example, computer coding was "feminine" when it was a boring routine typing job, but once it became prestigious and well paid it stopped being feminine.

All you have actually described is competitive behaviour and capitalism.

Oh I read the research, the success rate is surprisingly good, but don't let a good fact distract you

And increased hostility towards trans people, which is already happening, will force trans people back into the closet and make people think twice about being gender nonconforming. You can see that already happening with the moral panic about whether drag queens should be allowed around children or not

That is a ridiculous misrepresentation of the valid concerns about drag queen storytime and drag queens being around children.

@ByGrabtharsHammerWhatASavings

Sexual violence against transwomen is horrific, but it isn't happening to them because they're women.

It's happening either as you say because they are perceived to be women or because they are perceived to be of the female gender and that will do for a lot of straight men. So does it really matter? It impacts the same, trans women are just as worried about walking through the streets late at night as women, for the same reasons. I'm nervous about getting in an uber on my own with a man just for the same reason my female friends are. I've had men grab my arse or aggresively come on to me just like my female friends have. I've compared notes with friends, the creepy dating messages and misogynist shit trans women get online is just the same as the creepy shit non trans women get.

Men, living and appearing as men, don't get this shit. Gay men by and large don't get this shit. Women including trans women do, and it informs our lives and our freedoms. Surely feminism is stronger if it recognises that commonality and we fight against it together?

"Now much of this is hidden because men lie. But the truth is there is a huge number of men, who identify as and consider themselves straight who are sexually interested in trans women to the point that ladyboys and shemales were a point of both obsession and hilarity within 'lad' culture and even the 4channers and incels go on about 'traps' and post trans porn to each other."

Nothing very unusual about bisexual men trying to deny their sexuality and using transwomen as a sort of half way house to try and pretend that they are really straight.

Did everyone get bored with the purpose of the thread and decide to service jj again?

It's happening either as you say because they are perceived to be women or because they are perceived to be of the female gender and that will do for a lot of straight men

I would assume it is happening for exactly the opposite reason- that they are not women but are perceived as men pretending to be women. If they are being attacked It's a variation of gay bashing.

@midgebabe

Oh I read the research, the success rate is surprisingly good, but don't let a good fact distract you

Perhaps you can provide a link to these facts. Did it take into account hormones and trans people?

And even if the success rate iwas 99% given how often we use gendered/sex based spaces then that's a lot of people getting pulled up a lot of the time because their birth sex is ambiguous.

@DidoLamenting

It's happening either as you say because they are perceived to be women or because they are perceived to be of the female gender and that will do for a lot of straight men

I would assume it is happening for exactly the opposite reason- that they are not women but are perceived as men pretending to be women. If they are being attacked It's a variation of gay bashing.

Gay bashers didn't usually rape their victims or send them dick pics. It's because for a lot of men someone looking feminine enough will do when it comes to having sex with them or sexually abusing them. And for some men, lots of men, it's a commonly indulged preference which is why shemale porn sells almost as much as mainstream porn to straight men and the trans sex work industry is booming.

Why the fuck area we into men's sex lives?

Jj I don't disagree with how men treat TW and women in those circumstances. At the same time, fighting against that isn't exactly a fully feminist issue, it's a "men have porn issues" and this needs to be tackled.

Male sexual violence again all groups of people is a human rights issue. Male sexual violence against women is a feminist issue. Feminists don't campaign for all people, we just campaign for women, against things that are happening to us because we're women. I will gladly campaign in whatever way I can to stop male violence against transwomen, but that doesn't make it feminism.

Fully agree with this (no paras that time though.)

At the same time, lesbians get those
messages from TW and verbally abuse when rejected. (Male pattern behaviour.)

That's why TW cannot be counted as an activist concern within feminism; lesbians have a right to define themselves as same sex attracted only.

Tinof to me that reads like giving up and running away because we can't win.

You know the next step to this is the snip at point zero, right?

You're saying we reject the word woman and embrace ourselves as female people in order to make headway. Meanwhile, male people are redefining female to be male-inclusive, and we're intimidated and harassed if we dare to self define as female people.

Your way doesn't work better than ours. The world tried your way, and what we've seen is that whatever word is used to demarcate us from the male of the species becomes the label for the derided and exploited stereotype that's forced upon us to keep us down.

I confess to curiosity about which word we'll flee to next.

Jj you are stoically looking through the eyes of a TW and that's useful for this discussion.

However, look through the eyes of a lesbian at a TW claiming to be a lesbian and see how there's an issue within feminism there.

Yeah yeah some "straight" men are really bisexual and use transwomen to fulfil these sexual urges. Boring!
Now are there any feminists out there who believe that there is no conflict between trans rights and women's rights ?

Sorry not caught up.

'Men extract money out of the bodies of female people on a scale that has never been seen before in human history. Prostitution and commercial sexual exploitation is out of control and surrogacy is a horror show.'

Taking into account the much larger numbers of people on the planet. I can't believe this is true? Would be interested in some more info.

I'm not a history expert but I'm just not sure about that.

Our position as chattel was global pretty much, for what, centuries? Still is in some places and recently won, relatively speaking in UK for example. But worse? Than ever in history? That doesn't sound right at all TBH.

Tinof to me that reads like giving up and running away because we can't win.

Completely agree Tyro.

Women's representation economically and politically is not achieved by blabbering about gender.

It's achieved by getting the jobs and positions. I read a comment on academic thread in AMA yesterday were the least anti women people were identified as men in their sixties. They are not the people smearing people who as *erfs. It's the LGBT & feminist students and junior staff doing that. The older staff have actually put the work in and are facilitating equal representation.

Excellent question, Escape. Why are we onto men's sex lives?

Let's focus on women instead. Personally I found the experience of trying to navigate a sexual relationship with a male who was aroused by sexualised knickers and fantasised about being forced to service men, and wondered whether he was trans because he'd mentally labelled the role of subservient fucktoy 'woman', to be one hell of a headfuck.

Feminism is for female people.
It’s right there in the name.

And we are so good at recognising sex characteristics that we can even do it cross species - my dog can tell human females from human males and I can discern a female dog from a male dog.

That some species in the animal kingdom utilise aggressive or defensive mimicry or use mimicry as a mating strategy (ie cuttlefish) doesn’t render our entire classification and organising system useless, it just means we need to pay more attention and from a human safeguarding point of view, close any loopholes as soon as they arise.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aggressive_mimicry
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mimicry#Defensive
www.nature.com/news/2005/050117/full/050117-9.html