Canada - Judge delays double mastectomy

[Dimpsey]

Saw this on twitter and thought I would share: vancouversun.com/news/b-c-supreme-court-judge-orders-surgeon-to-deny-trans-teens-mastectomy-wish?utm_term=Autofeed&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1604974077

Mother of the child asking the surgeons to provide evidence of the protocol they have followed to demonstrate that the operation is in the child's best interests.

We truly need good surveys on the numbers of desisters and detransitioners. What is available is either old (such as the Dutch study which showed high rates of desisting) or has problems with the way a survey has been carried out (as in the more recent study which only used data from a gender clinic, but most detransitioners might not go back to where they transitioned).

Which studies support this statement? When it comes to surgical intervention, I want clinicians to follow scientific research. Rather than the strongly held beliefs of children. That is a responsible concern, not judgemental

One thing I have noticed, which i don't know if its been explored is that there's an awful lot of trans people who have made appearances on tv and written articles etc who despite having finished their transition as far as they want to take it are still not "done" . I'm.sure for the vast vast majority that their wish to help, their advocacy for others comes from a good place. They don't want others to feel how they did But there are alot both publically and anonymously on forums , well basically they just kind of seem to then focus on other peoples transitions.

I dont know if I'm.making any sense , take one famous one for starters. Full transition medically and surgically who now throws themselves into their friends transitions by fundraising and sharing their story etc

It all kinda seems never ending. Has anyone looked into whether they can actually just stop. Completely and how common this need to relive it all through other people is. Is that something that needs exploration?

What other medical conditions involve cutting off healthy body parts?

I know a doctor created amputees around 20 years ago in the U.K. but that was quickly found to be unethical and was stopped.

I find it heartbreaking that any teenager suffering anxiety has adults around her who want to chop off her breasts.

Why would adults argue this is in any girl's best interests?

"We are born like this, and it never goes away"

Really? You stated you knew from age 6, so clearly not born "trans".

If you cant define what it is, then really lifelong medical treatment and life changing surgery shouldnt be the go to treatment for any young person untill all other avenues have been explored.

MadBadDaddy
"Being trans is not a choice. It is not dysmorphia, it is not being GNC, it is not an illness or a paraphilia. It is not 'being trapped in the wrong body'. It is not an escape from social constraints. We are born like this, and it never goes away. Ultimately, the best treatment is transition."

What is it then? Born like what? If it cannot be described, how do people know if they are trans? How do we know it even exists? Why should we take you seriously?

nepeta

www.google.com/amp/s/www.somersetlive.co.uk/news/somerset-news/bath-spa-university-james-caspian-2557060.amp

Also nepeta

www.womenarehuman.com/academic-seeks-european-court-ruling-on-right-to-research-gender-transition-regret/

"Being trans is not a choice. It is not dysmorphia, it is not being GNC, it is not an illness or a paraphilia. It is not 'being trapped in the wrong body'. It is not an escape from social constraints. We are born like this, and it never goes away. Ultimately, the best treatment is transition."

What is it then?

As more light is being shone on this issue the list of what being trans isn't seems to be growing longer and longer, but we are never actually told what it is?

And when we are talking law and policy, particularly when it comes to children being set down life long medical pathways, people chopping off healthy body parts and women being forced to share vulnerable spaces with biological males, it is essential that we are able to define this in unequivocal terms.

For those who are truly interested in understanding the issues around children and young people, then this book is a treasure trove:

'Inventing Transgender Children and Young People', edited by Michelle Moore and Heather Brunswick-Evans.

It's a series of essays and analysis that provide clinical perspectives from medical practitioners, and cultural perspectives from detransitioners, educationalists and therapists.

The research is thorough and detailed and the contributors are experts in their fields.

Does transition really cure it though,?

Isnt it just like pain killers , they seem like the easiest and fastest way to treat pain. But it doesn't deal with the cause of the pain. And one day you wake up ajd they don't work any more as your body is resistant to them, or your liver is stuffed. You then have to chose which conditions you want to treat because the new pain pills aren't compatible with other medication. They work for a while then....

At some point dont you have to deal with the cause of the pain. Do you do that before risking addiction and liver damage which is permanent, or after....

If it never goes away then what's the point in transition?

What is it then? Born like what? If it cannot be described, how do people know if they are trans? How do we know it even exists? Why should we take you seriously?

Yes. Also, why should children and teenagers take it seriously?

Please hear all of these questions in the neutral zone which they deserve. Such questions come from a place of deep concern for young people rather than hostility towards adults who identify as trans.

I am confused by the statement by madbaddaddy of "being trans isn't gender dysphoria"... Isn't that what the surgery is aimed to treat? If it's not a medical issue, why does it need a medical treatment?

Of course I do believe that there are children who experience gender dysphoria, just like I believe that there are children who experience anorexia nervosa. People are predisposed genetically to having anorexia nervosa. However, environment plays a massive factor. The fact that it is most predominant in wealthier countries with one idea of beauty/ health has a huge influence on whether those who are genetically disposed develope it.

This is the DSM V for gender dysphoria in children. At least 4 of the criteria are based on what society deems to be how a child of one gender should dress/ play:

In children, gender dysphoria diagnosis involves at least six of the following and an associated significant distress or impairment in function, lasting at least six months:

1. A strong desire to be of the other gender or an insistence that one is the other gender
2. A strong preference for wearing clothes typical of the opposite gender
3. A strong preference for cross-gender roles in make-believe play or fantasy play
4. A strong preference for the toys, games or activities stereotypically used or engaged in by the other gender
5. A strong preference for playmates of the other gender
6. A strong rejection of toys, games and activities typical of one’s assigned gender
7. A strong dislike of one’s sexual anatomy
8. A strong desire for the physical sex characteristics that match one’s experienced gender

Half of those don't even make that much sense?

Experienced gender? What is that. I mean surely that's reliant on being pretty paranoid about what people think?

Is it healthy to really be so self absorbed that you think people are taking any notice.

I mean I dont care what the person in front of me in the boots queue is buying. Its none if my business if they are buying pink t shirts or camo trousers.. no one really cares.

I'd view such paranoia as a sign of a mental health issue not a sign tht they should be something else

And I’ve seen that in practice. A psychiatrist writing in a clinical letter about a girl:

“....wearing boys’ clothes”

Which was a girl wearing jeans and boots . Whereas all the teenagers I see personally I wouldn’t even note their clothes as meaning anything other than clothes they like to wear. It’s a gender clinic clinician’s personal rigid beliefs that results in diagnosis of these children.

This is the official criteria being used to justify permanent harm to the bodies of children. A child meets enough of these criteria and they are set for puberty blockers. Children with autism. Children being sexually abused. Children with trauma. All at higher rates in gender clinics than anywhere else. And we are meant to trust doctors who do so little to question why?

No. Just no.

And we are meant totrustdoctors who do so little to questionwhy?

Throw in homophobic/anti-homosexual parents and doctors NotBad.

"Erase" homosexual children and adults by "changing" their sex

See: Iran. Also Ireland and the UK.

MBD, pretend I'm six and I ask "what is the difference between boys and girls?". What is the correct answer, phrased in a way a 6yo can completely understand?

www.bbc.com/news/health-51806962

Homophobia in families attending GIDS is mentioned in all the transcripts Newsnight has seen.

But who am I to say with certainty that your DDs friends are like me or not? The truth is i cannot.

My issue is many older people advocating affirmative only treatment and medicalisation of children do it based on their own childhood experience. I see little by way of acknowledgement from those pushing the under 18 medicalisation route that the current teens may be very very different and for a while, there also seemed to be more interest in blocking any research into the group. Who benefits from that? I have my own answers but always happy to hear others.

The difference is that I know, with absolute certainty that there is a baby in that bathwater, wheras others, on this thread even, cannot or will not accept this as true.

And yet, this baby, if it is there, is so poorly defined, so poorly described and is extremely politicised.

I'm also inclined to trust the doctors, etc, who's job it is to help make the call one way or another on such a dramatic, disturbing decision.

In this current climate of doctors being told that to treat comorbidities might lead to law suits because it now might be classed as conversion therapy? In this political environment when anyone who speaks out against affirmative only treatment is threatened personally and professionally? You trust that doctors have not been influenced. I don’t.

A) there is an ever changing language and ambiguity around this disorder, one that is be strongly pushed as requiring medical intervention.

B) this is a disorder that is self diagnosed and we are already told by organizations and clinical staff that children and teens are arriving armed with their self research. What chance is there that this self diagnosis is 100% (it has been said organisations such as mermaids are briefing patients in what to say)?

Tell us again, why we should trust a doctor that prescribes affirmative only treatment? In this case, of course the case notes are not discussed (nor should they be). However, I find anyone’s motives suspect who advocates for affirmative only treatment every time.

The topic above exists b/c of the mother's intervention, and the more general questions surrounding the child's capacity to advocate for themselves as well as the medical philosophy.

The topic exists because a parent wishes to make sure their daughter has received the best possible advice and that every aspect of this teens issue has been thoroughly investigated before this recommendation was given. It is a ONE MONTH delay to do that. If there is NO underlying issues that is pushing this, there would be no harm done in that one month.

According to the transcripts, these included cases where staff feared a child had suffered sexual abuse or trauma.

"In all of my previous work, if you had a concern, you refer them on," it's claimed.

"And that did not happen."

From Notbad link.

Also:

"The review acknowledges staff had raised concerns over a period of years. But staff claim in the transcripts that when they did so, they were seen as the problem."

"People who raise concerns are seen as trouble making and difficult," one staff member argued."

"When I raised concerns I was told that I had to toe the line or I would never progress in my career," another said."

Still no definition of what a trans child actually is I see. There never is. As other have said, we'll believe trans kids (and indeed trans adults) exist when you can define the word "trans/transgender" and are also prepared to explain the terms used within that defintion. You won't do it because no such definition so possible, but I keep asking in hope. Or you could just admit that "being transgender" is a state of males or females having dysphoria and/or a preference for cross sex stereotypes and/or a desire/delusion of being the opposite sex, then we can all move on and start discussing if and why "transition" is an appropriate treatment.

PurpleHoodie

The safeguarding issues are the basis of Sonia Appleby’s case against the Tavistock.

It surprises me not one bit that the girl in the OP has a history of some form of trauma.

@ByGrabtharsHammerWhatASavings

Still no definition of what a trans child actually is I see. There never is. As other have said, we'll believe trans kids (and indeed trans adults) exist when you can define the word "trans/transgender" and are also prepared to explain the terms used within that defintion. You won't do it because no such definition so possible, but I keep asking in hope. Or you could just admit that "being transgender" is a state of males or females having dysphoria and/or a preference for cross sex stereotypes and/or a desire/delusion of being the opposite sex, then we can all move on and start discussing if and why "transition" is an appropriate treatment.

Excellent post!!

I maintain that the whole thread starts with a prejudicial belief in the nature of trans children ie that no such child exists. This is wrong, and hurts children.

@MadBadDaddy What do you mean by this? Nobody is saying those children literally don't exist, the point being made is that you can't legally obtain a GRC as a child. This is merely a statement of fact.

Obviously children can suffer from Gender Dysphoria, the subject of the thread is a case where surgery is being used to alleviate this where there are other psychological problems and the girl involved is very young to make such a drastic choice.

Ultimately, the best treatment is transition

Any familiarity with the literature on this subject would show that is clearly false in many cases. I'm not saying SRS is not sometimes the best treatment (I've seen how life changing it can be) but it is a nuclear option.

The vast majority of young people with GD recover without needing to transition at all. Of the remainder many find social transition is sufficient. The evidence of the long term efficacy of SRS is mixed.

Surely in such a situation it's reasonable for a parent to ask what doctor's rationale is for being so drastic so early. Whatever the sad details of their lives I doubt this mother is motivated by anything other than love of her daughter.