Marriage counselling: the social conditioning, feminist version

[CynicalOptimist123]

Dear feminist vipers, please help me save my marriage. (NC for privacy).

When I fell in love with my now-DH, I was still a teenager, fresh at university and naively took it for granted that sex equality had been achieved.

Then I spent the intervening ten years reading this board, had a baby, and coronavirus happened, and I've realised a) that equality across society is so very far from being achieved and b) the extent to which as partners and parents my DH and I have been socially conditioned to behave in certain ways which means our marriage isn't fully equal in the way I would like it to be.

By the metric of the average male today my husband is very "good" - on a physical level most of our chores are shared equally, at the weekend we try to split childcare so we both get some time for our own hobbies, etc. And yet, we've fallen into so many socially-conditioned traps. I feel like I am the default parent, the default 'connection-maker' (gifts for family, organising social stuff etc), the default life-planner.

We keep trying to talk about it but we end up in this spiral. He asks me to tell him what more he needs to do, I say it isn't about a list of things to do, it's about social conditioning. He then says it sounds like I want him to just be more like me, but I feel like it's very easy to excuse social conditioning as "that's just the way I am" (e.g. not thinking about gifts / planning ahead). We then both end the conversations feeling resentful and misunderstood.

Basically, how do you talk to men about social conditioning? How do you unpick inequality within a marriage? I'm conscious I also need to move beyond my own social conditioning -- how do I stop seeing myself as default parent?

I'd be so grateful for any insights / personal experiences / recommendations for books or articles. Or whether you think I should just go set up a female-only commune somewhere.

It's fascinating how many times I read this thing about gifts on Mumsnet.

The ONLY time I've ever had a gift from any of my brothers is when a woman bought it. We happily haven't bought gifts for each other for years, no idea why women start dating a man and decide she has to manage his present giving. Just weird.

I think this comic which has done the rounds many times sums up the issue of the mental load which sounds like what you are describing.
english.emmaclit.com/2017/05/20/you-shouldve-asked/

Not sure if you have seen it but maybe show it to him as it demonstrates it's not just a "you and him" problem, it's a societal conditioning that the female partner is expected to manage the house and family.

@Escapeplanning he doesn't have siblings, and me and my brothers are similar in terms of lack of gift-giving. It's more an example of the kind of emotional labour involved in maintaining connections with family? For example I feel like I often do the running/prompting in terms of making sure his DP feel cared for, whether that's through gifts on their birthdays or photos of DD on Whatsapp.

Just stop doing it... I did, one day just stopped, so when dexp.. Said "what have we got for my parents this Christmas"
I said "I don't know, they are you parents what have you bought them"
He funnily became very quick and good at this stuff.. The stuff men claim they can't do

@CherryTreeBlossom thanks! I've shared that comic before, pre-DD, and it did help - he had a bit of a 'road to Damascus' moment about how much mental labour I'd been doing and things did improve. I think the thing is that with DD the mental load has increased again but I just slipped into doing it all -- which is equally the fault of my social conditioning as his.

I think I'm also trying to unpick the more nitty-gritty stuff, looking back at why we've made certain decisions about parenting and why we continue to behave in certain ways. For example when coronavirus hit I went on furlough to care for DD since we didn't have childcare, and have now gone down to part-time hours because we felt it was better for DD not to go straight into full-time nursery from lockdown. There are sensible economic reasons for me to be the one that went part-time, and DH would also say I'm "better suited" to looking after her... but how much of that is due to gender conditioning?

Another one day do less or don't do it at all.

I realised how I got myself into a trap the other day of reminding my husband to do things, as I failed to remind him about an appointment. He took responsibility but also said "you didn't remind me", so I was at fault too for not reminding him (though it was in the diary and I had reminded him the day before, just not on the day and presumably a matter of hours or minutes).

Of course when I do remind him I'm nagging (do men ever get accused of nagging?)

So I just stopped. If he misses stuff it's up to him to sort it out. Not my problem. We are all adults and capable of managing our lives and our children...or if not then there are consequences.

I do need to keep to this though so thanks for this thread OP as it reminds me to keep to my own advice!

I'd consider this from a behaviour modification point of view. I think it's very unlikely that explaining it to him, to help him understand, is going to work at this point - it sounds like you've already tried it. So he needs additional social conditioning to train him into a different way. I'd suggest: natural consequences for his failure to act (as others have said, let him fail to buy presents); positive feedback whenever he does something you appreciate, to reinforce it (not just verbal - more warmth, affection, favorite foods whatever); and finally if that doesn't work, just accepting things as they are - is this a dealbreaker for you? Can you spell out that this may be terminal for your marriage? Or can you withdraw the labour so you only do the parts that are most important to you and accept standards will decline (he may have a point about you wanting him to be more like you - could you shrug off your social conditioning instead?) Does he have different, compatible qualities / labours that balance out yours? Good luck.

This article is really good. Really gets across the sheer weight of hidden mental workload, and the frustration of it all.

Ha! You are doing it again. You are taking the mental load of teaching him about this. You need him to agree with your thinking before anything can change. Stop. Just stop. You know what you know. Act on it unilaterally rather than waiting for the man to be convinced it is good and right. Drop the lifeload. No more being the one who thinks about his parents. No more making all the appointments, sure you'll have to do some of the thinking up front to hand over the wifework but after that it is done, provided you can keep your social conditioning to make sure he is doing it right under control, e.g. "DH I want you to take responsibility for children's dentist appointments, haircuts, school clothes and sports kits. I will take responsibility for the other clothes and for doctor's appointments."

Realising that you have become a carer of your children is a bit of a shock but it doesn't last long in the grand scheme of things. Mine are adults now so those years are over. I can't say I enjoyed it at the time much. When my DH became unemployed when they were little he did the home stuff full time for years.

Namechange5575 sounds like she's recommended dog training!

@namechange5575

Or can you withdraw the labour so you only do the parts that are most important to you and accept standards will decline (he may have a point about you wanting him to be more like you - could you shrug off your social conditioning instead?) Does he have different, compatible qualities / labours that balance out yours? Good luck.

I think I do need to shrug off some of my social conditioning, for sure (and some of my personal flaws!). At the same time I don't like the implication that the 'feminine' way of doing things isn't of sufficient value to try to hold onto (I think emotional labour, typically done by women, is actually really important across society).

I think it's where it relates to DD is where it's a deal-breaker. I remember being very conscious as a child that my mum got us all our clothes, my mum planned Christmas gifts, etc. I really want to model a more equal approach to parenting for her sake!

At the same time it's so complicated. We decided from the outset to go for a fairly attachment parenting style of parenting - breastfeeding, cosleeping, etc - and I'm still committed to that. On the other hand it's weighted a lot of stuff towards me (because I have boobs!), and I guess I'd imagined by this point that things might have balanced out a bit more in terms of us being more equal parents. But I think there's now a need for us all to unlearn habits. Or maybe I just need to change my expectations about when greater independence from me will happen for DD? [shrug]

@Theredjellybean

Just stop doing it... I did, one day just stopped, so when dexp.. Said "what have we got for my parents this Christmas" I said "I don't know, they are you parents what have you bought them" He funnily became very quick and good at this stuff.. The stuff men claim they can't do

This. Talking about it will have no effect whatsoever . The work you do is invisible - you might as well tell his to be grateful to the air for having oxygen in it.

You need to STOP doing and and NEVER MENTION IT. The second bit is that hard part as you need to be prepared to let him fail / deal with the consequences.

You also need to deal with the guilt and the social pressure from other women .

Eg My SIL will phone me and say “ we must all get together, when is your DH free? “. She does this because she actually wants to get our husbands, who are brothers, together . It’s not about us, we just have to tag along. And do all the organising , buy the food, cook it, host and clean up afterwards.

Please Note, not “ when are you free SOOLA ? “ because I’m assumed to be able to fit around DHs availability .

So I say “ I don’t know, why don’t you ask [ your DH ] to give my Dh a call and they can sort it out ? “

I know and she knows that nothing will happen but she can’t say no. Because What I’m saying is logical - it just goes against all the social conditioning but we can’t say that out loud.

A few months will go by and my Dh will say casually “ we’ve not seen BIL and SIL a for a while “. But with a silent question mark at the end which means “ Why haven’t we seen them? Why are you not doing your job as my social secretary and supplier of emotional labour to my family ? “

I ignore the implied question and say “ Yes you’re right it must have been before last Christmas “.

Then I shut up. That’s the hard bit. I want to say “ why is it always up to me “ etc etc but I will just “ Oh you are so organised and I’m so helpless “ which will make me angry .

Or the annoyed “ When have I ever asked you to do this ? I’ve never , have I ? “. Even when he has, of course .

Or the faux hurt “ I thought you liked them, BIL always says how well you and SIL get on. Are you saying you don’t want anything to do with my family? “

So I stay quiet. He and BIL both have mobiles, know how to use them and can go for lunch together if they want to catch up . Or even arrange a meal out for all four of us ( lockdown permitting ).

Guess how many times this meal out - with his BIL / SIL that he’s so close to - has happened in the five years since I stopped doing wifework for him?

Escape that’s all very well for you and your brothers if this is a mutual agreement but what about your parent’s birthdays? What about DC’s birthday and Christmas? What about gifts for DC’s friends and the endless birthday parties?

I don’t think anyone marries someone and thinks oh great now I get to manage his gift giving. It’s just that they naturally fall into doing things that way because DH forgets or assumes it’s nothing to do with him or, more likely, never knew about it in the first place because the ‘default’ parent is responsible for remembering and organising DC’s schedule. And then she feels an obligation to step in because the way we’ve been conditioned will mean she gets the blame, not him, if things get forgotten about. When he was single, he’s just a typical man, oh ha ha, nobody expects him to remember silly mundane things like birthdays etc.

This is a real thing that you need to try and consciously rework. What doesn’t usually happen is DH picking up the slack because you have taken a step back. What has to happen instead is 1) deciding that you don’t care what people think about you, 2) deciding you don’t care about people like your MIL’s hurt feelings when they get forgotten about.

My DH will do anything I ask him. But I have to ask him every single time. It's exhausting.

A friend visited in the summer and she was very aware, being the guest, that he left everything to me. He turned up for meals but took no part in the conversation.

My sister visited just before lockdown and she said the same thing. He sat at the table with us to eat but said not one word.

His excuse is that it's my friend, my sister, so nothing to do with him, but my guests feel unwelcome because he makes no effort.

Actually I've just realised I'm completely fed up with him. I'm working away from home at the moment but I still text him to tell him to put the bins out

"Or maybe I just need to change my expectations about when greater independence from me will happen for DD? [shrug]"

Yes, about 18 years should do it. It did feel to me like I had got a job I hadn't applied for, I hadn't thought much beyond having a baby. All jobs have bits you dislike and coworkers that annoy you in the way they do their job. You are also living with this co worker. My DM has constantly ruminated for years on how inadequately she thinks family members perform in her opinion, we all avoid her like the plague now.

Escape that’s all very well for you and your brothers if this is a mutual agreement but what about your parent’s birthdays? What about DC’s birthday and Christmas? What about gifts for DC’s friends and the endless birthday parties?

I suppose you are right, buying presents for my kids was traumatic. I will never get over it.

Escapeplanning

18 years!

I definitely don't want to be the over-critical co-worker. But I find it hard to separate out what does and doesn't matter, particularly when it comes to DD!

JKRisagryff

The problem is, I do care about my PIL's feelings, they are wonderful people and I genuinely love them - they took me into their family with real warmth and affection and I want to return that in ways that they appreciate (to some extent I agree with DH and other posters here on the silly social expectation of gifts and cards - but it's how his DP express and recognise affection!). So maybe for me the task here is not to stop caring but to accept that I care as an independent individual and leave DH's expression of caring up to him...

I say just step back too. My DH is from a massive family. I've been with him 25 years or so. I've never done any initiation of the interaction with his (lovely) family. As a result, they've mostly never had any Xmas or birthday cards, but they don't seem to mind. He does keep in touch with them, and arrange for us to visit though.

2) deciding you don’t care about people like your MIL’s hurt feelings when they get forgotten about.

If my DSs partners decide to try to manage their relationship with me I won't be impressed. If they forget it's between me and them.

His side of the family- his responsibility.
Your side of the family- your responsibility.
DC - shared. As pp said, split the work - he gets uniforms, you get lunches (or whatever works). He gets Xmas presents, you get birthday presents. Party invites- take it in turns. Invite in - whose turn is it? They deal with getting dc there and back, presents, etc. (Which doesnt mean they have to do the physical getting the dc there and back if it's easier for the other parent or someone else to do it but they have to organise it.)

@Escapeplanning

It's fascinating how many times I read this thing about gifts on Mumsnet.

The ONLY time I've ever had a gift from any of my brothers is when a woman bought it. We happily haven't bought gifts for each other for years, no idea why women start dating a man and decide she has to manage his present giving. Just weird.

I don't understand this either. I buy presents for my family and a couple of my friends. I've never even sent a card , let alone, bought a birthday or Christmas present for any of my husband's family. It never occurred to me that it would be expected.

I had an amazing relationship with my MIL. Every thing I did for her was from me, I never insisted I was some sort of proxy for perceived inadequacy of her relationship with her son. They had been in a relationship for a long time before I appeared.

FWIW, the dynamic is the same in my relationship and I’m a lesbian in a relationship with a woman. We have DC.

So while a lot of it is gender and social conditioning, not all of it is.

But I find it hard to separate out what does and doesn't matter, particularly when it comes to DD!

You are assuming that if you put down the lifework, he will not pick it up. Sure, first time, second time he might not and something will fail but then he will pick it up most likely. Think of the PP who stopped reminding her DH about his appointments. Things like that. Also things like the kids running out of clean clothes because nobody did the laundry, it's not the end of the world for it to happen a couple of times.

Totally agree with jellybean & S00LA.

When you have an opportunity to put a contact name down, nursery, school, dentist, consider him as the default (only put yours down if it truly makes sense & works best for you). In the early years, you set the tone for the future and it's easier to state your position now than have to change the situation later.