Marriage counselling: the social conditioning, feminist version

[CynicalOptimist123]

Dear feminist vipers, please help me save my marriage. (NC for privacy).

When I fell in love with my now-DH, I was still a teenager, fresh at university and naively took it for granted that sex equality had been achieved.

Then I spent the intervening ten years reading this board, had a baby, and coronavirus happened, and I've realised a) that equality across society is so very far from being achieved and b) the extent to which as partners and parents my DH and I have been socially conditioned to behave in certain ways which means our marriage isn't fully equal in the way I would like it to be.

By the metric of the average male today my husband is very "good" - on a physical level most of our chores are shared equally, at the weekend we try to split childcare so we both get some time for our own hobbies, etc. And yet, we've fallen into so many socially-conditioned traps. I feel like I am the default parent, the default 'connection-maker' (gifts for family, organising social stuff etc), the default life-planner.

We keep trying to talk about it but we end up in this spiral. He asks me to tell him what more he needs to do, I say it isn't about a list of things to do, it's about social conditioning. He then says it sounds like I want him to just be more like me, but I feel like it's very easy to excuse social conditioning as "that's just the way I am" (e.g. not thinking about gifts / planning ahead). We then both end the conversations feeling resentful and misunderstood.

Basically, how do you talk to men about social conditioning? How do you unpick inequality within a marriage? I'm conscious I also need to move beyond my own social conditioning -- how do I stop seeing myself as default parent?

I'd be so grateful for any insights / personal experiences / recommendations for books or articles. Or whether you think I should just go set up a female-only commune somewhere.

@CherryTreeBlossom DD is a year and a half. She can absolutely go for a day without breastfeeding (she does at nursery), though if I'm around she'll ask. Nursing is still the easiest way to get her back to sleep in the night... though to be honest we've never tried having DH try to settle her. We co-sleep, and it's very easy for me to roll over to tend to her. One of the things we're in conflict about is that I find it easier to get a good night's sleep (even if interrupted by DD) if it's just her and me in the bed, but DH prefers to be in with us... but then I just feel frustrated during the night that he can't help, and annoyed in the day when he complains about being tired when he could have had an undisturbed night on our lovely spare bed!

He occasionally feels it's a little unfair that he has to rock and sing to her and I just have to stick her on a boob. Finally a female privilege!

Interesting assumption that rocking and singing to your own child is work for a dad. But BF is not work for a mum.

What women do is always trivialised. Words like just, easy, only and pop.

Can you pop in to see my mum ?
Just give your MIL a text.
I only work part time.
I just whip out a boob.
It’s easy for me to do it.
Can you pop out to the shops and pick up X for me.

Men rarely ‘pop’.

@S00LA

"Men rarely 'pop'." -- so very true!

"only" is a really interesting one too. I'll keep an eye on using that about myself...

A few weeks ago I asked if he'd take her for a full day at the weekend and he said he thought it would be "hell". Recently I said I'd found that quite offputting and he said he just wanted to be honest. I guess part of me feels if he decides it's going to be hell then it will be, not least because DD will pick up on that!

This is very revealing. He thinks it would be 'hell' to have your 18 month old for the day. Why would it be 'hell'? Does he also think it would be 'hell' for you? If not why not (and if he does think it would be 'hell' for you, why does he think it acceptable for you to have to do that but not him!?)

I would hazard a guess that he thinks it would be hell because he's never had her for a full day, and has no idea what he'd do/how he'd manage. But babies and toddlers don't come with a manual. The only way to learn how to be a proper parent is to do it, as you had to. Honestly, I'd be heartily ashamed if I were the parent of a toddler and couldn't take care of her for a single day.

And yes, it is tough at the moment, but guess what- it's tough for you too! And he'll never learn how to look after her if he doesn't start trying...

@CynicalOptimist123

Thanks everyone for the really thoughtful comments - they are so helpful.

Various posters have asked about whether DH considered shared parental leave / changing work patterns now DD is at nursery. When I was pregnant and indeed beforehand we discussed shared parental leave and a) it wasn't the best economic decision as his employee would only offer statutory whereas my maternity leave would be enhanced pay, and b) he didn't think he'd be good at it.

Compressed hours - pre-covid we had intended for DD to go into nursery 3 full days, then have a day with DH and then a day with me, so for us both to end up with full-time compressed into 4 days. The pandemic kind of knocked us for six because a) his work has ramped up a lot and b) DD was initially very unsettled at nursery. It's definitely worth reconsidering and I agree with posters saying that having DH take a good chunk of caring time would help a lot. He has never had her, on his own, for a full day.

I do think the pandemic is playing a role here too. We're both working from home which makes things a lot... blurrier, often to my disadvantage (since DD can be distracted from Dad's office door but not from Mum's!). There's also not masses for DH to do with DD if he were to have her for a full day. I often take her for garden playdates with friends but these are all with other mums that I met through maternity leave.

A few weeks ago I asked if he'd take her for a full day at the weekend and he said he thought it would be "hell". Recently I said I'd found that quite offputting and he said he just wanted to be honest. I guess part of me feels if he decides it's going to be hell then it will be, not least because DD will pick up on that!

I'd like to emphasise that he really does do a lot, and I think we're both stretched thin right now. He feels at a loss as to how he could take on much more household labour and I'm torn between not wanting to add to his load (because I love him!) whilst also feeling hard done by, and conscious that feeling resentful and not doing anything about it has the potential to really ruin our marriage.

“He didn’t think he’d be good at it”

He actually said this in response to a discussion about shared parental leave, he’s never looked after your DD for any period of time, and he thinks looking after her for a full day would be ‘hell’? No wonder you’re resentful. I bet he doesn’t make much effort to distract her from disturbing you wfh, but you make sure he isn’t disturbed.

Yes, a full day without a break from a child at that age (18 months) is tiring, but I’m sure you manage to do it!

If you don't want to do certain things, tell your dh that you need to divide off some tasks. Then you have to kind of negotiate them. What he cares about may not be what you care about - you can put him in charge of gifts to his family, but then you largely have to accept how he chooses to manage that job. It might take him a bit of practice/a few attempts to manage it efficiently too.

I've found it better to give dh the job of choosing things for his dad and brother, and also my dad, as they have a lot of interests in common. He's good at picking out things for the kids that wouldn't occur to me as well. We have also just reduced gift giving a lot within the extended family and household which probably did more to lighten the load. I've always tended to allow him to manage most communications with his parents and arrange visits, though I tend to manage holiday observances across three sets of parents as it's rather a one person job.

I find that it's better not to divide up tasks too much, or change them back and forth.

Frankly, I don't see a lot of utility in discussing this as a feminist issue in your marriage. Treat it as a management issue, and it's likely to be more successful. When you turn over a task make sure it's clear what it entails, ( for an example of where that didn't happen - also a funny reflection on how many women feel overwhelmed by Christmas.) Maybe keep in mind that it's as difficult for men to change their conditioning and habits as much as it is for us women, so if you are making changes it will take time to really become natural for either of you, and it may seem a bit stressful to step back for you, and to step forward for him.

I am going to come at this from the angle of being a SAHM for 15+ years.

Dh made it very clear before we got married that he wanted to be a hands on Dad. He has been more than that. From the very start I fed Ds and he winded him, changed him, because he could do all the things I could except feed him. On weekends we took turns to lie in. I was on maternity leave so had Ds all day, he would come home, take Ds from me, chat away to him whilst making me a cup of tea. He understood that I had to do everything with a baby in tow, so he could do that too.

The children are now teenagers but even if Dh is just nipping to collect an Amazon parcel from the locker nearby he will take a child with him. He still does one on one with them, always has.

The important thing is that your Dh doesn't get a choice to be with his child, that is parenting. I understand the convenience of co-sleeping and you feeding her back to sleep. But that doesn't stop your Dh being available the weekend morning (or weekday) and taking responsibility for his child. Leave you in bed, take her downstairs and stop seeing you as the rescuer. He needs to learn to read her cues, by himself, just as you did.

Weekends can be family time, but that means him and your DD, not all 3 of you. Set a time between x and x he is solely responsible, cannot come to you just like you won't ring him at work in the week.

The other family stuff like his parents is just stop doing it on his behalf. It is not your responsibility.

I said to an older friend something like, "it's easier for me, he's not very good at it". And she said "you had to learn, he can too". A few years down the line, I'm remembering. When you're so tired you want to do the easiest thing, and sonetimes it's you doing it. It won't always be the easiest thing in 2 years when the pattern is set that it's "your job". (Where I am currently.)

With regard to your dh taking the toddler for the day:

I think it's really normal for an adult, be it a mom or dad, who has not had a child alone for a day, and who maybe doesn't have a lot of experience with kids, to seem pretty intimidated by it. It's also really common for first time mums to just take on a lot of the work and settling in the early days, particularly if you are breastfeeding. Co-sleeping can actually emphasise that too, and having your husband sleep elsewhere might increase that rather than make it better.

It's totally fair though to tell him he will need to take her alone some days. You should both get some non-working days to yourself, and if he does more, you'll find it's also easier for him to help at home with her, say if you want a long bath or to complete some other task.

I'd suggest though that rather than starting with a whole day, start with a morning or afternoon. It will be less intimidating and he can probably manage to some extent by preparing an activity or going for a walk or something similar. If she's fractious there will be an end in sight, and also she will be able to get used to him. Maybe take a Saturday morning class for eight weeks. By the end I'd bet he will be much more confident about taking her for a day.

i'm a radfem and i think if this is really the only problem in your marriage you're doing ok.

I'm not sure the bond between mother and child which makes us the default parent is necessarily one it's desirable to try and change. That sounds more like a libfem erasure of motherhood "everyone's just a parent" goal.

With all the other stuff I would say simply stop doing it and watch what happens.

Becoming a mother made me cross with the additional workload of looking after two small people and their stuff. It was a pain in the ass.

Now it's over I want to go back and do it again (not really). Fortunately they are happy adults when I buy them pants and socks and a fancy toothbrush and they have willingly come on trips abroad with me I've paid for. I'm actually grateful for these things now. It's a pleasure for me.

It's overwhelming when they are so young and dependent but it gradually eases over time.

It's only 18 years. I had 30 odd years to myself before and 30 or so after so it's not a big deal in the long run.

I agree that to some extent, it's actually helpful to embrace that the mother's role will be different from the fathers, especially early on, and that is ok. It can drain away a lot of resentment.

However, everyone does need a break, and in most families that will mean the father taking a turn. 10 months is a good time to start making a move to allow that to happen, as at that age kids are old enough to get along just fine without breastfeeding.

Argh, should say 18 months, not 10!

I'm not sure the bond between mother and child which makes us the default parent is necessarily one it's desirable to try and change. That sounds more like a libfem erasure of motherhood "everyone's just a parent" goal.

I agree with you about the bond between mother and child, both in terms of specialness, and the undesirability (impossibility?) of erasing it, but that wasn't my reading of what the OP means by 'default parent'. I don't think she was talking about being the child's primary source of comfort if unwell for example. Her concern is being the default person doing the parenting day-to-day: the person who thinks about naps and meals and how to entertain a toddler, and ensures there are nappies in the changing bag before going out.

Near the beginning or our marriage, my DH asked me to get a birthday gift for his female cousin and he'd pay me back. So I did, sent it off with a card, I honestly accidently forgot to ask him to sign it or sign it for him and I only put my name.

There was much amusement in his family when she received it just from me. There wasn't much my DH could say. He has never asked me to organise anything for his family again.

I did buy my MIL a present for an important birthday. She knew it was from me though.

I've also had to push to not be the default parent for organising the DC. I've mainly done this by doing nothing then asking him last minute 'did you organise x, y or z'.

'He didn't think he'd be good at it' jumped out at me, for two reasons. First, why the assumption that you would be? And second, if he didn't assume you would be, why would it be OK for you to do something you're not good at (and learn on the job), but he couldn't countenance being challenged in that way?

And to say a day with his own daughter would be 'hell' - I'm afraid that's quite shocking, actually.

It sounds a bit as if what's going on here is him putting forth his sense of entitlement not to change, not to be challenged, not to have to leave his comfort zone for you and his daughter. I think the mental load/emotional labour etc* is a subsidiary aspect of this, not the full picture. What I see here is a man who doesn't feel he should have to adapt/challenge himself for a woman.

*One of the reasons why I think this is a slight red herring is that my dh is not great at that - the remembering birthdays, getting presents, planning parties, buying clothes, knowing who's got what music lesson when - and I do do it all, but there's so much else he does do (the food shopping I hate, meal planning, sharing the cooking, remembering bin day...) that it doesn't matter. We did natural term bf etc. for three children and of course there were times when he rocked one of them for an hour while they screamed, but he always threw himself completely full-heartedly into being with them, caring for them, doing stuff with them (not groups, but long walks with them in the back carrier, taking them to the supermarket, gardening, etc.) and building a bond that way. I could go off happily for a day from when they were really quite small (obv once they were beyond the absolute dependence on bf stage) - he would practically push me out the door. There just wasn't any idea in his mind that he had any entitlement to be less of a parent or functioning adult than me.

I would recommend the first thing you do is to stop planning anything to do with his side. When I made this change in our lives it was huge. And be fully transparent about it - tell husband you’re done planning and gifting to his side. From now on He talks to his, you to yours, and that you’re doing this because it’s all become too much and it’s unfair. If he thinks it’s important he need to do the work: no more freeloading.

You might be wondering how to deal with things like the Holidays. He talks to his, you talk to yours, then the two of you talk and decide what YOU want to prioritize as a couple.

I 've also had to push to not be the default parent for organising the DC. I've mainly done this by doing nothing then asking him last minute 'did you organise x, y or z'.

Despite talking about transparency in the above, I admit have used this strategy as well...

@FWRLurker

I 've also had to push to not be the default parent for organising the DC. I've mainly done this by doing nothing then asking him last minute 'did you organise x, y or z'.

Despite talking about transparency in the above, I admit have used this strategy as well...

Yes. Me too. Works a treat.

I'm at the other end, with now adult DC, but have recently left H. We met up yesterday, and had a Talk about where our relationship was. I said that I felt bottom of his priority list, and gave a specific example of when I was struggling to cook dinner (illness making me v tired and stressed and brainfoggy), he'd saunter in from work, dump his coat on the sofa (pet peeve) and start playing on his phone, rather than noticing I was struggling and offering to help, or even cooking a meal himself. He wrote that down, and said that as he'd been having to cook every night for himself since I'd left, he could easily do some more cooking. The he wanted to know what else he needed to do, at which point I flipped, but very calmly asked him why he thought I should give him a checklist of things he could do to show I wasn't bottom of his list of priorities. He genuinely couldn't see the issue with me having to give him a list, rather than him thinking about it himself.

Re presents, fingers crossed we're all going to DDs for Christmas, and exactly two months ago, we agreed we'd do a secret santa, she set it up online, and we all got emails. Yesterday DH asks casually "so what are we doing about Christmas presents this year?". He hadn't listened to DD suggesting a secret santa and the rest of us agreeing, he hadn't registered he'd had an email about it, and he just assumed I'd have sorted out what "we" were getting people. I am going to get presents for the ILs, and for nieces and nephews as I like them, and in the case of MIL, I've known her for longer than I haven't, but they're definitely going to be from me and not "us".

I'm now in the situation where I don't want to get back with him, but don't know how to tell him, because he just won't understand that it's not just the examples I've given him, it's the (lack of) thought and care behind why he does/doesn't do stuff, and just saying that I'm the most important thing in his life doesn't count for much when what he does shows that's not the case.

So, it doesn't always get easier once the DC are less time-intensive IME.

So, it doesn't always get easier once the DC are less time-intensive IME.

I completely understand and agree that a disengaged DH won't get easier as the family get older. Mine disengaged from me but not the kids and he was given divorce papers as a result.

I think the wifework extends even post divorce I'm afraid to say. My ex emails to ask when is the end of school term, when he should pick up or drop off (does this maybe 3 times a year). I refer him each time to the school but it's infuriating that he still thinks he can ask me.

It helps massively to go back to work full time, ideally with an early start and late finish, so your DH has to get your kid to childcare/pick up several times a week - sorting out all the stuff they need to get out of the house and then cooking tea when they get back. It removes all the nonsense about a part time worker therefore being responsible for all the domestic shit because hey, they are only part time!

I would still expect DH to do pick up and drop off on a regular basis, even if you stay part time because that’s part of being a good dad.

As for the rest of the wife work, just stop it. Which is hard. And I think a lot of men know they are totally taking the piss, because when you stop doing things they are reluctant to ask what happened to washing/ dinner/ the ILs presents because they know it just highlights that they should have done it all along.

I 've also had to push to not be the default parent for organising the DC. I've mainly done this by doing nothing then asking him last minute 'did you organise x, y or z'.

This is why you have to start training these men when your children are still young and the consequences of something not happening because he CBA are small. Otherwise you will end up having to do it otherwise eg child won’t get a school place / get to choose their GCSE subjects.

I left it far too late by doing too much for my XH for too long. Here’s some of the things he has done when it was his responsibility to care for his own children :

Not collect a child from nursery at lunchtime because he wanted to go and look at cars. He “ assumed “ it would be ok as the nursery was open until 6pm , even though our child only attended mornings.

Phoned me at work to ask for the phone number of one of MY friends to ask her to babysit for him in an hours time ( because I used to occasionally look after her child). He was shocked when I suggested that he call one of his friends instead.

He thought it was my job to put favours in the bank of friendship and his to draw them out.

He often Double booked himself and then expected me to change my plans to suit him.

The worst was when he didn’t check his diary when booking a work trip abroad. So I was in the air flying back from aboard while he was getting on another plane . He arranged a paid babysitter to cover these few hours and didn’t think what might go wrong if my flight was delayed or worse.

He arranged another work trip when I was away and tried to get his adult daughter to take time off work and travel to our home to babysit - she lives 8 hours away. Because obviously her woman’s job is less important than his man’s job.

BTW he is the boss at work so is in charge of his own workload and diary 99% of the time. All the “ double booking “ is because he sees parenting as some sort of optional extra that he can fit in when he has a free moment, because I am the default parent.

This has popped up in our marriage from time to time, often coinciding with times when we’ve both been under a lot of pressure (work, disturbed nights etc) and both feeling quite separately burdened iykwim. Covid has been hard on all of us in different ways, whether it’s lockdown, money worries, getting no holiday or homeschool while working.

If he were watching football or playing computer games then thats a different kettle of fish but if he works hard and helps at home, then I think it sometimes helps to be kind to each other and to understand that family/marriages can be a slog at times, not all Instagram and John Lewis advert. I think it’s important to articulate where you maybe feel neglected or taken for granted, but try to be kind in the areas where he may also be feeling burned out and overwhelmed. I think it’s also important to find ways of reminding yourselves why you married each other when you start to feel like overworked life colleagues.