Marriage counselling: the social conditioning, feminist version

[CynicalOptimist123]

Dear feminist vipers, please help me save my marriage. (NC for privacy).

When I fell in love with my now-DH, I was still a teenager, fresh at university and naively took it for granted that sex equality had been achieved.

Then I spent the intervening ten years reading this board, had a baby, and coronavirus happened, and I've realised a) that equality across society is so very far from being achieved and b) the extent to which as partners and parents my DH and I have been socially conditioned to behave in certain ways which means our marriage isn't fully equal in the way I would like it to be.

By the metric of the average male today my husband is very "good" - on a physical level most of our chores are shared equally, at the weekend we try to split childcare so we both get some time for our own hobbies, etc. And yet, we've fallen into so many socially-conditioned traps. I feel like I am the default parent, the default 'connection-maker' (gifts for family, organising social stuff etc), the default life-planner.

We keep trying to talk about it but we end up in this spiral. He asks me to tell him what more he needs to do, I say it isn't about a list of things to do, it's about social conditioning. He then says it sounds like I want him to just be more like me, but I feel like it's very easy to excuse social conditioning as "that's just the way I am" (e.g. not thinking about gifts / planning ahead). We then both end the conversations feeling resentful and misunderstood.

Basically, how do you talk to men about social conditioning? How do you unpick inequality within a marriage? I'm conscious I also need to move beyond my own social conditioning -- how do I stop seeing myself as default parent?

I'd be so grateful for any insights / personal experiences / recommendations for books or articles. Or whether you think I should just go set up a female-only commune somewhere.

@S00LA

He occasionally feels it's a little unfair that he has to rock and sing to her and I just have to stick her on a boob. Finally a female privilege!

Interesting assumption that rocking and singing to your own child is work for a dad. But BF is not work for a mum.

What women do is always trivialised. Words like just, easy, only and pop.

Can you pop in to see my mum ?
Just give your MIL a text.
I only work part time.
I just whip out a boob.
It’s easy for me to do it.
Can you pop out to the shops and pick up X for me.

Men rarely ‘pop’.

I get what you're saying completely. In his defence is more envy and his back playing up now she's not a tiny newborn and likes to try to wriggle out! I don't stand and rock her because I CBA when I know boobs will do it in half the time. This is probably why she still feeds quite a bit at night...

He absolutely understands the work required in bfeeding, he was at my elbow witnessing the difficulties at the start and offering support. Now, I do find it the "easy" way out, though if tomorrow I wanted to stop he would support me in that.

OP our daughters are the same age, and our plan was similar with DD at nursery 3 days a week, DH at home 1 or 2 days a week and originally my parents who are local would cover the other day. The pandemic has meant we are alternating taking leave to cover that extra day instead. There definitely has been an impact, at the start for instance DD regressed to bfeeding in the day, simply because I was around and she's an opportunist! It's also been harder for me to shut off and focus on work when I know she's in the other room. If I hear her giggling or crying I want to go join in or help.

The comment from your DH about it being hell is quite telling. It does suggest fear/apprehension about doing it alone. My DH loved furlough as he never thought he would get 3 additional months to bond with her one on one. He already thinks he would like to take the same time unpaid if we had another.
However when I went for a night out almost a year ago, he was probably just as apprehensive as your DH and would have described the prospect of the evening as hell. Because he worried he wouldn't be able to settle her on his own without milk (and as it turned out she howled the whole time and was awake on my return). But we still did it, because he agreed I deserved an evening off and some time away from being "mummy". The first time is often the toughest, it gets easier. Has he not even taken her out to a park for an hour or two on his own?

I personally found it a lot harder than I thought I would being apart from her. For all my "I won't give up a career for kids" from day one, I felt the guilt and I missed her whenever I left her with DH or someone else. I still look at photos of her when she's at nursery, we both do .

Each child and set of parents will be different and I'm certainly not saying what works for us will work for you/everyone, or that it's not desirable for the mother to be the main parent.
But certainly once they are weaned/weaning there is no reason the father can't do sole care, and the mother can have other priorities such as a career. If you don't want to be the majority carer/SAHM then you should absolutely not feel like you should because it's the default or your DH feels he isn't suited to it .

This is why you have to start training these men when your children are still young and the consequences of something not happening because he CBA are small.

Totally. I was lucky as my DH decided to take his two weeks paternity leave once I went back to work. I think he thought it would be a nice holiday for him. Haha
Let's just say I didn't come home to a nice clean house with a hot dinner on the table.
I managed to restrain myself to only pointing this out once.
We got a cleaner at the end of the two weeks.

OP you really need to push your DH into looking after your DC for the whole day despite what he says. It's not your problem if he doesn't have any 'mum" friends.

I just told dh he was responsible for gifts and requests from school e.g. costumes for world book day. Occasionally he will ask me to help but it is his mental load. Plus all the laundry.
He is the best 💙

STOP doing all the wife work. Why do women do this for men and then complain? I used to do this and then I stopped. Now my DH buys for his family and friends or he does not - it is totally on him and not me. I no longer have any involvement with any planning for his family - for years I did it all like a fool and none of them even like me!!!

Do not discuss it, just stop doing it. If he does not do it, ignore it - he clearly does not value it enough to do it himself.

Also, go back to work full time and split childcare - do not limit your own career for him. The only way to achieve equality is to take it.

Also, go back to work full time and split childcare - do not limit your own career for him. The only way to achieve equality is to take it.

Agree. There's no gender pay gap for women under 40. The generation of women who are now in their 60s that depended on men economically are now at work still with the worst pay gap that is uncloseable because of their earlier experience.

www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/bulletins/genderpaygapintheuk/2020

Source.

Yes, just don't do it. I never have. I get on perfectly well with DP's massive family but I have no idea when any of their birthdays are. I was very, painfully, aware this could happen at the outset. We both read a book called 'Shattered' which talked about this, discussed it and made a conscious decision to do some structural things to try and overcome the social conditioning.

This is why I'm a huge advocate of shared parental leave, even if you get more of a financial hit. It means you don't set up one parent as default and the family manager. We did that both times. We also made DP the default liaison with nursery and later, school (had to train school in that a bit, but they got the message once when they asked me to come and pick DC up without calling him first and I couldn't because I was on another continent). He does all the admin and parents evenings etc.

We also dropped his hours at work more than mine (I am the higher earner as well). I still work FT but compressed, he does 4 days.

I did do a lot of the attachment type stuff- and am still feeding an older toddler- but I also made a point of going out, and the deal was I didn't want to know if they were hard to settle etc. It was critical to set this up because I travel for work and he needed to manage on his own. Breastfeeding survived that Incidentally.

I think the conditioning is so strong you have to do some actual concrete stuff to flip it the other way a bit.

There are some sticking points still- overall life planning is more me, but we have really worked at it. There have been lots of times when I think, for example, he has done a series of crap dinners and it's annoying, but no one's going to die (he is equally annoyed I fail to follow through on laundry) We're a bit disorganized generally but it's ok. Neither of us want to be fully in charge of the home.

I also recommend getting a job with international travel! Or go back FT or 4 days each.

And don't limit your career for children either. I frequently didn't see mine awake from one weekend to the next. I consider this to be a positive female role model for two DSs to grow up with.

I wanted to pick up on a comment on the previous page on radical feminism as well. I'm a radical feminist as well and I take from that that the last 7 years of pregnancy, birthing, breastfeeding, broken sleep are work, and work that has value. And because they're work, and that work is due to my sex, he has to step up and do the work in other areas. The concrete stuff we did was to try and make sure that it was recognised as work and split things equally- so breastfeeding at 3am isn't just 'flopping a boob out'- it's tiring, bodied labour.

It doesn't mean he gets a by on forgetting we need milk. I'd be very surprised if the OP's partner being reluctant to take her DC at the weekend is because he's a secret radical feminist but maybe I'm wrong...!

I created a similar thread a few weeks ago - albeit I don't think mine is as 'bad' as yours.

We've both taken parental leave (him more than me), we both do the nights, he does most mornings and all nursery runs. We've both gone away for weekends leaving the children with the other one (albeit for me, only my first who was bottle fed, I haven't more recently). We've both had periods of working part time. We've both had to simultaneously look after a baby, entertain a toddler, tidy and get dinner done.

Some men don't share the mental load because they think its beneath them, and are so used to women picking up the slack that they don't, a small minority (of which my husband is part of), just struggle remembering that sort of stuff regardless. The easy way to see which he falls into is by looking at other areas of his life perhaps.

I think there are two separate issues here though - default parenting, and the mental load.

Default parenting.
As someone that bottle fed one baby, and breast fed another (meant to be combi, so we could be equal, but baby wasn't having it!), I do notice a difference in his confidence levels between the two. Going out for a day with our first has always phased him far less than our second, because he sees how much boobs can soothe her, and knows he can't do that. Its definitely meant me being more of a default parent, no matter how much other stuff he does (and he does), because its easier to put her on a tit, than her learn how to settle in a different way, when hysterical. Lockdown (and us both being around more) probably hasn't helped.

It sounds like your husband needs to build his confidence up, and the only way to do that is to spend more time with his child, without you there. And that includes it being his responsibility to manage his time, take what he needs etc obviously (the amount of women that pack a bag for a man makes me shudder).

Mental load.
If something bothers you a lot, then do it (or try to get him to), but generally, try not to chase up, or work around his not doing things. As we both struggle to remember things (him more than me, but I'm not great either) we use a notice board, and talk through it once a week or so.

I'm still working on (or should I say we are, because he is too) trying to get this right. Its hard isn't it :-(

@Escapeplanning

And don't limit your career for children either. I frequently didn't see mine awake from one weekend to the next. I consider this to be a positive female role model for two DSs to grow up with.

That might be finefor you, but there are plenty of people, men and women, who would hate to have a family life like that.

This idea that women aren't valuable or showing their kids their value if they are doing work that is unpaid or in the home is pernicious and sexist.

I've never done any wife work. Mainly because I was shit at it as a singleton and continue to be shit at it now. It would never occur to me to send anyone in dp's family a card or present for example. We each do our own family. Similarly it's my brother than sends me birthday cards and dd presents etc. I'd find it really weird if his wife sent me a birthday card. I'm also rubbish at cleaning, cooking and remembering school events. Generally dp has thought about what needs to be done before I have. I feel like a fraud on these threads!

For example I feel like I often do the running/prompting in terms of making sure his DP feel cared for, whether that's through gifts on their birthdays or photos of DD on Whatsapp.
You created a rod for your back. Only you can break it.

We decided from the outset to go for a fairly attachment parenting style of parenting - breastfeeding, cosleeping, etc - and I'm still committed to that.

You know attachment theory was invented by a man, surprise surprise eh? (Sears). It has no research or evidence behind it. It’s purely a theory and you may ignore it quite happily without causing your baby the least harm. It’s another stick to beat women with as far as I’m concerned.

@Theredjellybean

Just stop doing it... I did, one day just stopped, so when dexp.. Said "what have we got for my parents this Christmas" I said "I don't know, they are you parents what have you bought them" He funnily became very quick and good at this stuff.. The stuff men claim they can't do

I did exactly this too. So liberating!

@Escapeplanning

It's fascinating how many times I read this thing about gifts on Mumsnet.

The ONLY time I've ever had a gift from any of my brothers is when a woman bought it. We happily haven't bought gifts for each other for years, no idea why women start dating a man and decide she has to manage his present giving. Just weird.

This is an excellent point. I buy all the presents from my husband and I, with really no appreciation or thanks. I have never thought about why I do it, it must be some kind of conditioning but when...very good point x

I would hit the roof if my dh didn’t want to do shared care because he didn’t think he’d be good at.
Even as a very opinionated woman with a career sharing the load has been a battle. My dh is pretty good now but just accepts everything I have done for us. Even with very early conflicts it has been a journey. The most success has been where I’ve said nothing to do with me. So with eldest lots of the babies were doing swimming lessons. Dh enthusiastic so I would say cheerfully in the baby group conversations that dh was organising it. I think they happened when bub was 2, not 6 months like lots of the others. The thing is, if he’d only gone or he effort to pull a little bit of weight, he’d have gotten away with it for so long. After years of protesting I did all the holiday organising he had a spectacular fail. I asked him to organise one part of the trip, he emailed me a link to an article top 10 things to do in New York. He’d genuinely saved me about 10 seconds. Then he came back with a plan of Empire State building in the evening. Do you realise there are 2 hour queues and our 15 month old will be going insane? Was a shitty guest where we stayed at his brothers, I was trying to be a good guest (ie don’t disappear for a run as your sister in law preps dinner because RUDE, tidy up and wash our things, try to find some baby food etc for camping, research where to go in this town, and forgot a card for our anniversary. He told me off.a few weeks later I lost it - Said if I’m tired and stressed organising every single thing for us to have a great family time while he fucks off and thinks only of himself on our anniversary, then he is more likely to get kicked out for the night than a romantic card, and I’m not going on another holiday with him unless it’s 150% he organised it. Happy to cancel the day before flights and lose the money. The next two holidays were his mates wedding and a trip with his parents and he knew I meant it. Since then he’s been much better with holidays after doing everything for those two. But it shouldn’t take a marital volcanic eruption. He’s organising finding a cleaner for the first time after similar. It really works best when you say I’m not touching that job, not thinking about it, nothing to do with me, all on you (& I set some parameters down for a good job - booking summer childcare you need dates to choose activities work out with mum and mil what days they can do, put it all in a calendar with links as they will need to take x) We are getting close to equality but it’s been hard work from me.

@Escapeplanning

And don't limit your career for children either. I frequently didn't see mine awake from one weekend to the next. I consider this to be a positive female role model for two DSs to grow up with.

Yeah you keep telling yourself that

No! He doesn't want to spend a whole day with her because it'd be hell?! The shit. I don't like extended solo parenting time with my kids either, it's really hard. I tend to spend more time with my kids during the week, so often at the weekend DP takes them out for the day. I get a bit of recuperation time. I think you need to start with addressing what is actually fair, then you being rather more assertive about getting a fair outcome. 'You're better at it / I don't fancy it' are not responses you need to accept. Them spending time together, even if he's reluctant, will improve their relationship.

Thanks so much to everyone for the further thoughts. As @CheeryTreeBlossom put it, I think the "hell" comment was more coming from a place of anxiety / lack of confidence than from him actively disliking the idea of spending time with DD! He regularly takes her for a couple of hours at a time but I think the thought of longer stretches does worry him in terms of keeping her happy without me. As PP said it's simply a case of just going for it.

@Canwecancel2020 those are really good points. Lockdown has been hard and I've struggled with the transition back to work in the current circumstances. We are both very stressed and I think that makes issues feel larger than they are.

Leave the gaps. It’s hard work. “Oh DH I’m off out on Saturday all day.” And just go. Don’t plan, don’t prepare don’t do one iota more than he would. Do this all the time. He’ll either be retrainable or he won’t.

Tell him you are now only managing your side for gifts, socialising etc. And then don’t mention it again. Ask him the same questions he asks you “have we got my mum a birthday present?”

Working at home - agree in advance that you both have day on day off of being on kid duty. Unless hospital required that doesn’t change and leave him to it.

Regarding the gifts, tell him to put his side of the family (DH does my side too) special days in Google calendar with a reminder for a month in advance. Them he has plenty of time to get sorted.
Give him a year or ten and he'll be there.

This is what dh does. Every few years people get a fabulous birthday present.

We've been married 20 years now.it didn't start this way - we are from another culture and even more social conditioning baggage. But we muddle on and get better at this.

@RuffleCrow

i'm a radfem and i think if this is really the only problem in your marriage you're doing ok.

I'm not sure the bond between mother and child which makes us the default parent is necessarily one it's desirable to try and change. That sounds more like a libfem erasure of motherhood "everyone's just a parent" goal.

With all the other stuff I would say simply stop doing it and watch what happens.

@RuffleCrow I do agree with you about not wanting to change that bond, and with the risk of erasing sex-specific differences. I guess I just want to find a balance between embracing the aspects of the mother-child relationship that are distinctive from the father-child relationship, and identifying the bits that aren't!

This thread has been really useful and I'm glad I posted. Partly because it's made me realise what DH and I already do well / have done well in equality terms. When DD was born he had saved up masses of annual leave so he was home with us for 5 weeks, and he was so confident with DD then and I felt we'd cracked the "different but equal" parenting thing. In terms of childcare it's really about me letting him and him being willing to spend enough time solo with her to gain that confidence again. And maybe a bit less of me always jumping in!

In terms of the other stuff as PPs have said it's ongoing work. He's been reading the responses to this thread and it's helped him reflect too on the type of mental/emotional labour I've been doing that he hasn't. We'll get there! -- or at least, we'll keep trying to get there.

The book Wifework is great for highlighting how when you marry or have children your own internalised sexism kicks in as biological reality hits and you go down a path you never intended to take without realising what you are both doing. I don't like the final chapters but the main part was like an epiphany for me.

Like many middle-aged women with a good career, when I was younger I thought equality had been mostly sorted out by my generation and neither DH & I nor our friends were going to be like our parent's generation. Then we all had children. Ah, right, I see how that patriarchy thing happens now even when everyone is lovely, with good intentions and two nice careers. Anyway, I highly recommend Wifework. Also the more recent Half A Wife is worth a read.