Marriage counselling: the social conditioning, feminist version

[CynicalOptimist123]

Dear feminist vipers, please help me save my marriage. (NC for privacy).

When I fell in love with my now-DH, I was still a teenager, fresh at university and naively took it for granted that sex equality had been achieved.

Then I spent the intervening ten years reading this board, had a baby, and coronavirus happened, and I've realised a) that equality across society is so very far from being achieved and b) the extent to which as partners and parents my DH and I have been socially conditioned to behave in certain ways which means our marriage isn't fully equal in the way I would like it to be.

By the metric of the average male today my husband is very "good" - on a physical level most of our chores are shared equally, at the weekend we try to split childcare so we both get some time for our own hobbies, etc. And yet, we've fallen into so many socially-conditioned traps. I feel like I am the default parent, the default 'connection-maker' (gifts for family, organising social stuff etc), the default life-planner.

We keep trying to talk about it but we end up in this spiral. He asks me to tell him what more he needs to do, I say it isn't about a list of things to do, it's about social conditioning. He then says it sounds like I want him to just be more like me, but I feel like it's very easy to excuse social conditioning as "that's just the way I am" (e.g. not thinking about gifts / planning ahead). We then both end the conversations feeling resentful and misunderstood.

Basically, how do you talk to men about social conditioning? How do you unpick inequality within a marriage? I'm conscious I also need to move beyond my own social conditioning -- how do I stop seeing myself as default parent?

I'd be so grateful for any insights / personal experiences / recommendations for books or articles. Or whether you think I should just go set up a female-only commune somewhere.

Interesting thread. This is the conclusion I have come to. I needed to make this socialisation situation work for me, I needed to work out what was important to me without trying to change DP - why would I put effort into doing that? Focused my energy on me and my DC.

My children are older now but I take the line but I do things for them (and that I mostly like obvs). I accepted ages ago that DP would not organise anything. This is because all he thinks about is himself, he is selfish, he also just expects me to do it. But I do it for my children because it makes them happy and makes me happy. For example I go way overboard at Christmas, I love it, it makes me happy and my children love it. If I didn't we wouldn't do anything.

I don't do anything for DP. Obviously I cook meals for the family, do laundry etc (part time work) but I don't organise anything for him or his family. Example, his sister visited from overseas a few years ago, lots of presents for our DC however DP had bought nothing, done nothing, even when we went shopping he didn't buy anything for them. Personally I thought this wasn't very nice/kind but it reflected badly on him, not me. Social conditioning, he didn't seem to care.

I think men want the whole family thing but generally (NAMALT!) don't want to put any effort into it because they are not bothered about it.

Lastly as I frequently see on these threads, these men hold down jobs and are accountable to their boss, they manage to keep their cars clean, they organised boys holidays - golf, cycling trips etc. They can do it if they want it, if they are interested, if it matters to them.

Middlesex Girl

Jeepers, we haven't got to the age of party invites yet... or maybe we have, but the pandemic means parties haven't been happening. That's good advice for when it does start happening, though!

The gifts thing was a red herring, I think - it's not the deal-breaker issue here!

I'm conscious I also need to move beyond my own social conditioning -- how do I stop seeingmyselfas default parent?

I don't understand your question tbh. If a child has 2 parents then other than breastfeeding why would one be the default parent?

I slipped into this role in my first marriage - I was young and that's how my parents (mother the martyr) and XH's parents modelled a marriage. I did come to resent more and more being piled on me, however. It was a relief when we split up to examine this more closely. I'd also realised that lads at uni in shared houses just expected the girls to take on the lion's share of the mental processing as well as keeping the house nice etc. We'd rail against it but it never changed for long.
I won't do this stuff for DH - I made it very clear when we began that I wasn't a maid/mother/brain-outsourcing centre. Just stop doing it, or choose just the bits that you like to do. Men clearly don't see or don't mind how bloody pathetic they come across: Mr 'I run a company' can't even think up something to have for tea on a Wednesday? Not buying it.

My biggest triumph was to decide I would no longer feel guilty about refusing to do all the "wifework". It was easier said than done (because the fact was that I DID feel really guilty about it.)

We women are so conditioned to deal with everybody else's shit that it's really hard to unlearn these behaviours. We are made out to be terrible people if we refuse.

My MIL thought it completely outrageous that I refused to toe the party line. As for my own family - I am now no contact with all my siblings because I refused to deal with their shit any more. (2 completely useless brothers, 1 sister who has never worked and is now just a seething ball of resentment.)

Breaking free of the stereotypical expectations heaped upon me as a girl/woman/daughter/wife/mother/sister has been utterly liberating. But bloody hell, it really upsets people.

DidoLamenting

So I guess what I mean is that in the early days we very much followed the fourth trimester principle that a newborn needs his/her mum, that she's the most familiar thing and that setting up that secure attachment between mother and child creates the basis for secure attachment to other caregivers. And also that generally she was calmest with me so it was just easiest for me to be the 'default' when she was unsettled. So when she was upset she was passed to me and I stuck a boob in her mouth and that generally seemed to do the trick. Practically speaking I was the default parent and it worked and helped us all get as much sleep as possible!

She's not a newborn anymore but I think we're still living with that habit of me reaching for her / DH handing her to me when she gets upset. We need to unlearn that habit but also the assumption on my side that she'll calm down better for me and on DH's side that he isn't as good at calming her... does that make sense?!

I don't do anything for DP. Obviously I cook meals for the family, do laundry etc (part time work) but I don't organise anything for him or his family

Nor do I- I don't even do his laundry. I don't know what temperature setting he uses for his expensive work shirts for example much as he has no idea what settings I use for bras. We've always done our own laundry. I've literally never ironed a shirt for him.

School stuff was always split equally. We took week about for morning school run and nanny/ childminder did collection. Everything else was strictly a joint responsibility, including organising birthday parties for our son or purchasing gifts for him to take to parties.

She's not a newborn anymore but I think we're still living with that habit of me reaching for her / DH handing her to me when she gets upset. We need to unlearn that habit but also the assumption on my side that she'll calm down better for me and on DH's side that he isn't as good at calming her... does that make sense?!

Good plan.

In same boat and decided to leave him but it’s not as straightforward as that sometimes- what about things that he should be responsible for but effect both of us- like being late doing his taxes and us ending up fined? Or not getting one of his parents a present for their birthday, and then being upset with our whole family?
I agree men can step up when forced, but sometimes they still don’t and it becomes your issue whether you like it or not!

I don't really know the answer to this OP as I feel like I am spectacularly failing. We have three children and a series of small decisions, each rather inconsequential at the time, have led to me being the default parent and yes, I do feel trapped sometimes. It is harder with children as you don't want to let them down. (One particular occasion I can remember DH saying on Christmas Eve "maybe we should buy something for the children to open tomorrow"? Yes, he really has no idea how much I facilitate family life but at the same time I cannot stop doing it as I would also be cutting off my own nose to spite my face. Over the years, tactics I have tried include assigning him tasks that I don't get involved in at all. This sometimes works but he is also (strategically?) incompetent at lots of things so I end up taking the jobs back as it ends up being less hassle. Yes, I do resent this! He has a career with responsibilty for thousands of pounds yet he can't handle very simple tasks with household budgeting? I don't buy it. I don't buy presents for his family though!

I stopped doing the mental gift work for DH a few years ago.

I then have to deal with new sil who impressed the inlaws with her on the ball cards and gifts, though said inlaws are rubbish with cards themselves.

It's also hard as the other sil was extremely pleased with the obvious effort I'd gone into for her daughters, one of who is on the spectrum. It meant a lot to them. So that's a grapple I have to deal with as obviously they appreciate the relationship and effort. That sil did comment on the woeful lack of card and gift memory the family with three boys have though, and I do wonder if it was her attempt to pose an open feminist leaning query (they live in NY and she's a lecturer.)

But I hold firm. His whole family are a bit like that though.

I totally sympathise with the difficulty of ensuring equal parenting. What was the set up for DHs parents? I think we unconsciously mirror our own parents when we approach it.

I recall when I first met DH he said he felt it was important for there to be a parent at home when kids are little. His mum had been at home/part time till he was in secondary school. I (at 18, and already an ardent feminist) said great, you can do that. My mum had worked full time my entire childhood and I saw no issues with it. A decade later DH has indeed gone part time and it was he who took furlough when our childcare closed.

However that was because he actively wanted to do that, not just me not wanting to do it, if you see what I mean. It was also economic as I am the higher earner. I do think this is a big driver of our more equal home workload vs most.
Yes there are some things he can't do (DD still feeds at night, never took a bottle) and in the early days it was obviously a LOT more on me. I also found it a lot harder than I thought to just "leave him to it" when she was small and I was the primary carer on mat leave. It felt neglectful somehow to not be doing the bedtime routine, even though I'd been at home all day with her! I had to stop myself leaping up when the baby monitor went off and let him attempt to settle DD so they could develop that bond.

How old is your DD? Once my DD was not feeding in the day there was no reason that he couldn't take her out for the afternoon on his own, and he did.
I still do night feeds so he does the morning routine so I can rest. On the occasion that we've had a good night and I let him have a lie in, DD still marches over to his side of the bed and demands he get up. She has already been conditioned that he gets up to change her and play with her first thing; in her mind he is "better suited" to that activity .

The conditioning from society is a challenge. Despite putting DH as the primary carer, it is me who gets called by nursery/doctors etc when she needs something. Funnily enough though, after I did all the paperwork and they only ever called me, they called him to discuss the bill.

I think even if DD is still "attached" to you most of the time, it's worth assessing now how you want the childcare to be divided and start working towards it. It will likely take time for both of you to build the confidence, so good to start sooner rather than later.

As regards being 'default parent', has your DH ever done a sustained period of childcare? Did he take any shared parental leave? Have you gone away for a sustained period of time? Has he reduced/compressed his working hours to take on the childcare a day a week? I think that's very often key in creating an equal parenting relationship.

When I had DS1, I was definitely 'default parent' to start with- it's almost impossible not to be if you take maternity leave for several months and you're with the baby day in day out. I stopped being default parent when I went back to work and DH had a day a week at home with DS, and another day or two where I had to leave at 7 so DH was doing the nursery runs and sorting DS out in the morning. That's when we shifted to properly equal parenting. DH had to step up and remember things/think about food and naps, because I wasn't there to do it and if he didn't, the consequences were on him.

@HairyRrug

Totally agree with jellybean & S00LA.

When you have an opportunity to put a contact name down, nursery, school, dentist, consider him as the default (only put yours down if it truly makes sense & works best for you). In the early years, you set the tone for the future and it's easier to state your position now than have to change the situation later.

I did this across the board, I'm not even registered at the same GP, the child benefit is in his name etc. I'm secondary on it all. They still call me.

@CynicalOptimist123

DidoLamenting

So I guess what I mean is that in the early days we very much followed the fourth trimester principle that a newborn needs his/her mum, that she's the most familiar thing and that setting up that secure attachment between mother and child creates the basis for secure attachment to other caregivers. And also that generally she was calmest with me so it was just easiest for me to be the 'default' when she was unsettled. So when she was upset she was passed to me and I stuck a boob in her mouth and that generally seemed to do the trick. Practically speaking I was the default parent and it worked and helped us all get as much sleep as possible!

She's not a newborn anymore but I think we're still living with that habit of me reaching for her / DH handing her to me when she gets upset. We need to unlearn that habit but also the assumption on my side that she'll calm down better for me and on DH's side that he isn't as good at calming her... does that make sense?!

I think that’s fine IF he recognises that BF / settling baby is work. So while you do that, he needs to make dinner.

Not sit on the sofa watching football then wait until you are finished and saying “what’s for dinner ? “.

So if you are up in the night feeding, he needs to care for baby in the morning so you can lie in. Not complain that baby is waking him and he’s tired for football training.

Not say “ I’ll get out your way to football training so you can get on with the house work “ .

( so you get to care for baby and do the house while he has fun)

Not say “ we are going down the pub after training to I’ll be back about 5pm “ . Then come home at 7pm after several pints and fall asleep on the sofa.

Which means he gets a whole day and evening off and you get no time off.

No adding “ My mums been a bit lonely this week with my dad away for work, perhaps you has baby could pop in later, that would cheer her up ? “ .

No it’s not your job to do his emotional labour and be a carer to his family.

It’s not the Bf alone . It’s all the other assumptions that men ( and some women ) make around women being the default parent.

BF needs to be the way that you have BOTH decided that you will feed / care for your baby. Not your personal hobby that he will indulge as long as you still do everything else around it.

If you read the above the other way around, you will see how unreasonable it is. Can you imagine a mum who works FT while her husband cares for the kids and then spends all Saturday and the evening doing her own thing? Followed by sleeping all day Sunday bevause she’s hung over / tired / there’s a good match on the TV / she deserves to relax bevause she’s worked all week.

Yet many women put up with this for years.

All the men I know who are SAHD get at least one day a week off. Because their wives appreciate them and the mums WANT to spent time with their kids at the weekend.

I know some SAHM who haven’t had a day off in 10 years.

Apparently being a SAHM is a piece of piss and women are lucky that their husbands support them to do this .

Whereas being a SAHD is bloody hard work and women are lucky that their husbands support them like this.

Please note - all the SAHD are husbands and not partners. For some mysterious reason, marriage isn’t “just a piece of paper” to all the SAHDs that I know.

None of them “ don’t believe in marriage “. None of them disagree with it for political reasons or because their parents were divorced.

Odd that.

Soooo happy not to have a man living in my home.
I love the comic - it sums the unequal dynamic up so simply.

There is something we can do about it, as mothers we can raise our children in a way that breaks this down. I have a DD and DS, sounds ridiculous but in many ways I am trying to reverse it by raising expectations of DS but having conversations with DD about these things. I don't want my DS to be a rubbish partner/husband/father in this respect.

Women in many ways are the their own worse enemy, MILs expect their DILs to do all this stuff, mothers accept their sons won't remember birthdays etc but expect their daughters. WE need to change our approach, from what I see however things won't change anytime soon :-(

I made the stupid mistake when I was much younger of marrying a wealthy narcissist. He expected me to be the obedient SAHM. Forget about my career (although apparently one can't count teaching as a "career" according to him). Be the "good wifey" and do what I'm told. Do not have an opinion. Look pretty. Don't work - that would be an insult to his masculinity and role of provider. Do all housework and all of the childcare.
No thanks.
Left him.
Now engaged to a man who earns slightly less than me. Loving my career although I'm on mat leave currently. It's brilliant being in an equal partnership. We make a great team.

She's not a newborn anymore but I think we're still living with that habit of me reaching for her / DH handing her to me when she gets upset. We need to unlearn that habit but also the assumption on my side that she'll calm down better for me and on DH's side that he isn't as good at calming her... does that make sense?!

It's not as assumption at first, she likely did calm down better for you as you could feed her. The number of times DH rocked her for ages while she howled, and then settled the moment she got on a boob. She wasn't hungry but she wanted the familiar comfort.
However he still tried, especially once we were trying to stop bfeeding to sleep at night. This has meant up to an hour of him pacing and singing. It wasn't easy for me not to just intervene, or him give up. I think you not being around is probably a good way to ensure you both stick to it!
Now she will settle equally well for either of us, unless she's really hungry
We do "shifts" - he will settle her 7pm-1am and I do 1am-7am. He occasionally feels it's a little unfair that he has to rock and sing to her and I just have to stick her on a boob. Finally a female privilege!

@CheeryTreeBlossom

My OH feels exactly the same with our five month-old daughter - he takes her out for a long walk every evening to settle her, I just whack her on the boob!!

Men and their useless nipples!

@hesaidshesaidwhat

There is something we can do about it, as mothers we can raise our children in a way that breaks this down. I have a DD and DS, sounds ridiculous but in many ways I am trying to reverse it by raising expectations of DS but having conversations with DD about these things. I don't want my DS to be a rubbish partner/husband/father in this respect.

Women in many ways are the their own worse enemy, MILs expect their DILs to do all this stuff, mothers accept their sons won't remember birthdays etc but expect their daughters. WE need to change our approach, from what I see however things won't change anytime soon :-(

Another Thing we can do is raise our expectations of men as fathers.

When men tell me their Dp is pregnant / just given birth, I always ask how long they ( the man ) are taking off work, are they going back part time, how are they going to combine work and parenthood. If they say they are going back full time, I remind them that children are small for such a short time, they won’t get that time back, won’t they feel sad at missing out .

Basically the same things everyone else says to women.

I’d also expect my sons to do half the work of raising their kids, even if they are no longer with the mother. I’d be ashamed if my sons were in well paid jobs and giving their kids the Legal minimum and seeing them a couple of times a month, like so many of the “ great fathers “ here.

@FurryGiraffe

As regards being 'default parent', has your DH ever done a sustained period of childcare? Did he take any shared parental leave? Have you gone away for a sustained period of time? Has he reduced/compressed his working hours to take on the childcare a day a week? I think that's very often key in creating an equal parenting relationship.

When I had DS1, I was definitely 'default parent' to start with- it's almost impossible not to be if you take maternity leave for several months and you're with the baby day in day out. I stopped being default parent when I went back to work and DH had a day a week at home with DS, and another day or two where I had to leave at 7 so DH was doing the nursery runs and sorting DS out in the morning. That's when we shifted to properly equal parenting. DH had to step up and remember things/think about food and naps, because I wasn't there to do it and if he didn't, the consequences were on him.

Really agree with this. We had always been fairly equal, but during maternity leave I ended up doing more housework/ childcare as I was the one at home, and I could see how this could continue after I’d gone back to work. DH took two months of shared parental leave at the end of my maternity leave, then started working compressed hours so he was at home with DD one day a fortnight. This really made him more of an equal parent.

You mention that you decided to go back to work part-time (I did the same) - did your DH look at going part-time or changing to compressed hours to reduce time at nursery? And if not, why not? I had quite a few other mums at baby groups etc saying they could never do shared parental leave or both go part-time - sometimes because of money, but a few of them said they didn’t want to share that time at home. I think you can’t expect equal parenting without giving up some control/ some ‘experiences’ (not the best word but I hope you know what I mean).

Sorry, I have not really answered your question about an equal split of the mental load. One thing we have done is assigned areas of responsibility - DH is responsible for hair cuts and dentist appointments; I am responsible for clothes and shoe shopping; he is in charge of costumes for World Book Day etc; he did the nursery drop-off so dealt with all nursery paperwork; now I do the school drop off so deal with school paperwork. I’ll be honest and say that it is hard for me to give up control, especially if DD is affected if DH forgets something, but I make myself do it.

Thanks everyone for the really thoughtful comments - they are so helpful.

Various posters have asked about whether DH considered shared parental leave / changing work patterns now DD is at nursery. When I was pregnant and indeed beforehand we discussed shared parental leave and a) it wasn't the best economic decision as his employee would only offer statutory whereas my maternity leave would be enhanced pay, and b) he didn't think he'd be good at it.

Compressed hours - pre-covid we had intended for DD to go into nursery 3 full days, then have a day with DH and then a day with me, so for us both to end up with full-time compressed into 4 days. The pandemic kind of knocked us for six because a) his work has ramped up a lot and b) DD was initially very unsettled at nursery. It's definitely worth reconsidering and I agree with posters saying that having DH take a good chunk of caring time would help a lot. He has never had her, on his own, for a full day.

I do think the pandemic is playing a role here too. We're both working from home which makes things a lot... blurrier, often to my disadvantage (since DD can be distracted from Dad's office door but not from Mum's!). There's also not masses for DH to do with DD if he were to have her for a full day. I often take her for garden playdates with friends but these are all with other mums that I met through maternity leave.

A few weeks ago I asked if he'd take her for a full day at the weekend and he said he thought it would be "hell". Recently I said I'd found that quite offputting and he said he just wanted to be honest. I guess part of me feels if he decides it's going to be hell then it will be, not least because DD will pick up on that!

I'd like to emphasise that he really does do a lot, and I think we're both stretched thin right now. He feels at a loss as to how he could take on much more household labour and I'm torn between not wanting to add to his load (because I love him!) whilst also feeling hard done by, and conscious that feeling resentful and not doing anything about it has the potential to really ruin our marriage.

english.emmaclit.com/2017/05/20/you-shouldve-asked/

My daughter posted this and it's so true...Get him to read it