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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

There's a WOMAN in the White House (nearly)

303 replies

ReallyRatherNerdy · 07/11/2020 19:35

Finding this very emotional. Dancing round the kitchen. Anyone else?

OP posts:
LordLancington · 10/11/2020 03:16

It's certainly an odd and unprecedented situation to find ourselves speculating that an unashamed misogynist who talked about grabbing em by the pussy might yet have been the best option for women's rights - admittedly inadvertently.

I think there is pretty much zero chance that self ID or the erosion of the meaning of 'a woman' would have happened under Trump, even if he probably thought women should be in the kitchen or whatever.

FireUnderTheHand · 10/11/2020 03:35

Obviously, the fine detail is very important to you as an informed American. I don't know whether you have a legal background or work in a political field, or whether you are just interested.

I perform my duty as a citizen of this nation by educating myself and accessing the public documents that any American can access (for free) if they want to make the effort.

But you are being pretty unrealistic to expect the vast, vast majority to have the energy, inclination, educaton or means to understand all the ins and outs of constitutional law or political machinations in general. For the vast majority, it is not their fault, your system never gave them a chance.

Okay I didn't say I expected anyone to understand the ins and outs of constitutional law (I don't and most constitutional lawyers don't and neither do judges for that matter - both tend to specialize as our constitution is so lengthy and wordy). In regards to the energy, inclination, or education - I see those as excuses to be ignorant of our government. Those that choose ignorance at their own peril are oft surprised when they are suddenly persecuted. I began my journey in middle school in American Government class and continued as a homeless teenager at the free public library (because they would let me stay all night). Yep I totally saw myself as superior to my compatriots while I was wearing the same clothes for days on end, bathing at school, eating customer leftovers from their plates at work, and playing off to the authorities that all was hunky dory.

Your attitude towards people with an equal voting right as you is replete with contempt.

Because they choose to be ill-informed and follow popular sentiment? Because they don't read anything and vote based on SM and MSM only? Because they pander feelings as facts and hate (literally fucking hate and make threats to) people like me that actually care about material reality and seek pragmatic legislature? Yes I hold their perspectives in contempt because they are in contempt as they are guilty of disrespecting our duty to provide freedom/liberty/justice to all Americans. By choosing ignorance they condemn the most vulnerable to terrible circumstances. My family, friends, neighbors, and acquaintances all voted for their picks. I support their right to choose the candidate(s) they believe they align most with but most of them are admittedly uninformed and voted based on platitudes. I have a right to my perspective and so do they - I don't hate them or otherwise though I am saddened and frustrated by their lack of commitment.

Perhaps that's justified in your experience; but if Brexit has taught us British anything, woe betide telling someone with as much power as you have that they are a fuckwit.

Well I would never call any of them fuckwits; I might call them sheeple/uninformed/self-righteous to their faces after sharing actual facts if they continue to attempt to lecture me on things they are painfully ignorant about (it is a constant). On occasion I see that little light go off and I can only hope that they will read more and listen less to platitudes. Not because I'm right but because I hope to have a better discussion the next go around. Intelligent discourse regarding politics is a rarity here IME.

Perhaps using all that knowledge to start a conversation at grassroots level might change a few minds.

That is why I am an active member of WoLF, have started a local women's group, and donate to WHRC. Additionally, I speak to anyone in person that is even somewhat receptive to me to garner support for sex-based rights in the US.

Nobody on a UK website is going to care much once this thread disappears into the annals.

I guess it depends on how the outcome affects the greater world, you could be totally correct in that assertion. I have no idea.

We've got our own problems, and have been told quite categorically that our gender ID issues aren't your issues, and that we don't understand your issues.

I disagree with the PPs that state as much. We basically have self-ID in many states. Currently legislature moves towards encapsulating gender identity under 'sex' which is a huge threat while including sexual orientation is an obvious and needed addition. The TR movement is a big problem here but it is now inextricably tied to BLM so barely anyone will put their heads above the parapet for fear of losing their jobs or being called a bigot (regardless of skin color, sex, or sexual orientation). Sounds pretty similar to what you all are enduring TBH. We aren't Canada (yet) but the nation is being pulled into the vortex.

FireUnderTheHand · 10/11/2020 03:53

@LordLancington

It's certainly an odd and unprecedented situation to find ourselves speculating that an unashamed misogynist who talked about grabbing em by the pussy might yet have been the best option for women's rights - admittedly inadvertently.

I think there is pretty much zero chance that self ID or the erosion of the meaning of 'a woman' would have happened under Trump, even if he probably thought women should be in the kitchen or whatever.

As a person I despise him but I have to agree with you on this.

Trump's rescission of Obama's POTUS guidance on Title IX was a win for women/girls (female variety, um of the female reproductive organ owners type). And there's more but I expect you are already aware. Smile

LordLancington · 10/11/2020 03:58

As a person I despise him but I have to agree with you on this.

Trump's rescission of Obama's POTUS guidance on Title IX was a win for women/girls (female variety, um of the female reproductive organ owners type). And there's more but I expect you are already aware.

I feel like Trump was perhaps the devil we know, but of course time will tell and I could be completely wrong.

turnitonagain · 10/11/2020 04:07

I disagree with the PPs that state as much. We basically have self-ID in many states. Currently legislature moves towards encapsulating gender identity under 'sex' which is a huge threat while including sexual orientation is an obvious and needed addition.

My general point is that people haven’t been tricked into it. America has 50 states, if the one you live in is too socially liberal for you, pick another. People in California are ok with self ID, that’s why they have it. People in Utah are not, so they don’t.

LGB activists may need to separate themselves from T if they want the EA to get through. It’s very difficult from the outside for Democrats to turn back to the grassroots and tell them which members of their group will get rights and which ones won’t. In the same way you saw in this election, many Latinos who have their own discrimination issues appear to dislike BLM strongly and voted Republican as a result. If BLM was BLLM “black and Latino lives matter” it would be tough for white politicians to tell them how to split that up in order to get bills passed more easily.

LordLancington · 10/11/2020 04:09

If pressed, I would probably say I'm pro choice, whilst acknowledging that I'm a bloke and it's not really my voice that matters in this.

But at least there are some women who are pro life and would have backed/rejoiced at Trump's potential changes. With the TRA lobby/self ID/womxn stuff, I just can't see how it really benefits any women. It just seems to me that some women support it to ultimately 'be nice' and would be happy on behalf on trans people rather then really seeing any intrinsic benefit to themselves.

To me, the latter really seems like turkeys voting for xmas, but I'm not that well read on the topic and am possibly a bit naive about it all.

FireUnderTheHand · 10/11/2020 04:17

@LordLancington

As a person I despise him but I have to agree with you on this.

Trump's rescission of Obama's POTUS guidance on Title IX was a win for women/girls (female variety, um of the female reproductive organ owners type). And there's more but I expect you are already aware.

I feel like Trump was perhaps the devil we know, but of course time will tell and I could be completely wrong.

Exactly what I have been saying...
turnitonagain · 10/11/2020 04:21

@LordLancington

If pressed, I would probably say I'm pro choice, whilst acknowledging that I'm a bloke and it's not really my voice that matters in this.

But at least there are some women who are pro life and would have backed/rejoiced at Trump's potential changes. With the TRA lobby/self ID/womxn stuff, I just can't see how it really benefits any women. It just seems to me that some women support it to ultimately 'be nice' and would be happy on behalf on trans people rather then really seeing any intrinsic benefit to themselves.

To me, the latter really seems like turkeys voting for xmas, but I'm not that well read on the topic and am possibly a bit naive about it all.

It rather obviously benefits women who want to change their gender identity. I have a 20 year old cousin and half her friends are non-binary/trans/etc. Younger people feel differently about this issue.
FireUnderTheHand · 10/11/2020 04:24

@turnitonagain

I disagree with the PPs that state as much. We basically have self-ID in many states. Currently legislature moves towards encapsulating gender identity under 'sex' which is a huge threat while including sexual orientation is an obvious and needed addition.

My general point is that people haven’t been tricked into it. America has 50 states, if the one you live in is too socially liberal for you, pick another. People in California are ok with self ID, that’s why they have it. People in Utah are not, so they don’t.

LGB activists may need to separate themselves from T if they want the EA to get through. It’s very difficult from the outside for Democrats to turn back to the grassroots and tell them which members of their group will get rights and which ones won’t. In the same way you saw in this election, many Latinos who have their own discrimination issues appear to dislike BLM strongly and voted Republican as a result. If BLM was BLLM “black and Latino lives matter” it would be tough for white politicians to tell them how to split that up in order to get bills passed more easily.

Move away you say? Not so easy for the socioeconomically depressed, you know a huge portion of the most vulnerable women and children?
turnitonagain · 10/11/2020 04:28

That’s how America works. In Oregon they’ve just decriminalised all drugs. The vast majority of Americans would not agree with that, but that’s why it’s not federal policy.

America’s foundational myths are based on trekking the wilderness to set up your own little paradise based on whatever whacky beliefs or religious group you ascribe to.

FireUnderTheHand · 10/11/2020 04:41

That’s how America works. In Oregon they’ve just decriminalised all drugs. The vast majority of Americans would not agree with that, but that’s why it’s not federal policy.

I think that a great deal of Americans would agree that decriminalization of all drugs is preferable to the past 'War on Drugs'. I find it preferable as does my DH as well as my Trump supporting and Biden supporting neighbors. We are getting there as a nation with marijuana I don't think it is too odd to think we would get there on other drugs.

turnitonagain · 10/11/2020 04:49

www.vox.com/2016/3/15/11224500/marijuana-legalization-war-on-drugs-poll

The only drug with wide support for decriminalisation in America is marijuana.

www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/lifestyle/social_issues/most_oppose_transgender_athletes_on_opposite_sex_teams

Most Americans are against trans athletes competing with women too.

LordLancington · 10/11/2020 04:49

It rather obviously benefits women who want to change their gender identity. I have a 20 year old cousin and half her friends are non-binary/trans/etc. Younger people feel differently about this issue.

Fair point. Although my (admittedly kneejerk) thoughts are that some manner of GRC can provide this to the genuinely committed without allowing a bloke to follow a woman into the ladies' toilets and be immune from challenge as he's just decided he identifies as a woman (even though he felt manly yesterday and used the gents).

However, I don't really believe in gender fluidity. It just seems too far fetched for me and seems to rely on stereotypes of 'feeling like a man/woman' on any given day. Why can't you have 'different sides' for want of a better phrase? Some days I want to be manly and deadlift 260kg in the gym/do some hard boxing sparring, whilst other days I'm happy to well up at embarrassingly cheesy films (and pretend to my gf that the chilli dip she bought was really a bit too hot for my tender sinuses) 😂.

I know that self ID has sort of been happening anyway for years, but anybody who tells me that it's not 100x harder to challenge people nowadays (for fear of being a bigot and experiencing potentially life changing consequences) is talking shit IMHO.

turnitonagain · 10/11/2020 05:40

I don’t personally believe in it either, and I think it’s a fad more than an existential threat to womanhood. However that makes me essentially pro-trans on FWR Hmm

7Days · 10/11/2020 07:26

It may be a fad, but if legislators pander to a fad, the impact will be felt by women.

Aesopfable · 10/11/2020 07:37

It rather obviously benefits women who want to change their gender identity. I have a 20 year old cousin and half her friends are non-binary/trans/etc. Younger people feel differently about this issue.

I don't agree it benefits them to say that if they want to dress/be accepted/do stereotypically masculine things they must identify as men and take harmful drugs and undergo surgery with all its risks. How can that be better than them believing they can do all these things and still be women? It is incredibly sad and very harmful to your niece's friends. How are we in a place that young people feel so constrained by sex stereotypes that that they feel they must id as the other sex if they don't want to follow them?

FWRLurker · 10/11/2020 13:48

I think that rescinding the bad against CRT training (or queer theory based LGBTQ training with genderbread etc) is a win for free speech actually. Trump was doing the cancel culture thing himself there!

Although i personally disagree with CRT that’s no reason for it to be verboten. Neither banned no mandated Is the right route. The nonsense of it becomes clear quite quickly once heard, which is good. More sunlight.

And yes “move if you don’t like it” doesn’t help the raped 12 year old going through forced birth in Mississippi, or the girls from CT who want to compete in track.

FWRLurker · 10/11/2020 13:52

I think that right now the way that young people are expressing their nonconformity/rebellion is by attempting to identify out of their sex. Probably like most rebellion the most effective approach is a bemused shrug and otherwise ignore it?? 🤷‍♀️

turnitonagain · 10/11/2020 22:57

@FWRLurker

I think that right now the way that young people are expressing their nonconformity/rebellion is by attempting to identify out of their sex. Probably like most rebellion the most effective approach is a bemused shrug and otherwise ignore it?? 🤷‍♀️
That’s my attitude. When the trend passes we’ll have a very small percentage of gender dysphoric people who will be protected from being unfairly fired or evicted from their homes. The rest will have moved on to something else.

This is why I don’t believe trans lobbying is the end of women anymore than I believed gay marriage would be the end of marriage, which was also claimed by activists against it.

LordLancington · 11/11/2020 03:40

When the trend passes we’ll have a very small percentage of gender dysphoric people who will be protected from being unfairly fired or evicted from their homes. The rest will have moved on to something else.

But when you've had a double mastectomy before reaching adulthood (as may happen in current case being discussed on here) or have your penis lopped off, it's going to be hard to go back to 'normal life'. It is likely that many may end up with suicide, causing much more enduring suffering than another few years of Trump, who I don't think would've catered to the woke.

People are saying criminalisation of abortion is a bigger problem, but the threads in FWR over the past few years dont reflect that and have utterly dwarfed discussion around abortion. I've read countless times that the erasure of women is the biggest threat most have faced in their lifetime.

I honestly think some people are now downplaying this simply because they detest Trump and also because many focused on the more obvious things like his general unpalatability and completely missed the bigger picture in rushing him out the Whitehouse in favour of any alternative.

turnitonagain · 11/11/2020 04:04

America doesn’t have free healthcare so unlikely that there are swathes of teenagers whose parents can pay for mastectomies etc. Some but not most. None of my cousin’s friends who are “gender fluid” with “they” pronouns have actually done any medical transitions and they are uni aged at the moment.

My opinion has nothing to do with Trump. I don’t believe women as a group will cease to exist because genuine transgenderism is very rare. 1 in 50,000 or something like that. Doesn’t keep me up at night and I don’t have any friends in real life concerned about it either.

This thread is basically arguing that if Americans are voting for candidates who support trans rights issues, it’s because they don’t know what they’re really voting for, or they’re too stupid to understand how dangerous the agenda is.

What some people here won’t accept is that many Americans aren’t concerned about it because it doesn’t affect their lives much, or because they live in conservative communities where anyone even vaguely gender non-conforming is chased out or prayed over by the local evangelical church.

LordLancington · 11/11/2020 04:22

My opinion has nothing to do with Trump.

It's not all about you, dear.

What some people here won’t accept is that many Americans aren’t concerned about it because it doesn’t affect their lives much, or because they live in conservative communities where anyone even vaguely gender non-conforming is chased out or prayed over by the local evangelical church.

Chasing out gender NC people? Sounds like something to aspire to.

FWRLurker · 11/11/2020 04:29

There actually seem to be 2 groups of teens making up the majority of transitioners - mostly gay boys from religious conservative backgrounds whose parents would prefer they were straight, and kids of both sexes from affluent, mostly liberal families. The latter are the clusters.

I will add that beyond the bemused shrug I would also be saying “no” to anything permanent were it my child (just as I would with plastic surgery, tattoos etc). I am concerned for the number of children who will transition and later regret it and I would favor policy that adds more gate keeping for children and research seems to support this (and also more funding for research).

LordLancington · 11/11/2020 04:34

Sorry, that was a bit of a twattish reply on my part. I did used to argue how rare trans people are to be fair, but then I started seeing major UK organisations changing their guidelines to allow males into female spaces and people who disagreed losing their jobs etc and being made social pariahs.

The issue IMO isn't how many genuine trans people there are, it's how many potential sexual abusers there are and whether they'll be able to follow my nieces into the women's changing rooms without challenge just by uttering the magic words. Having to 'live as a woman' for two years and go through the process is more likely IMO to lessen the number of 'opportunistic' crimes and many shadier characters probably wont want to draw attention to themselves by going through an official process (unlike most genuine trans people who IME seem to love drawing attention to their trans status).

FWRLurker · 11/11/2020 16:22

I do think there are some who consistently state and publicly live a transgender identity yet I still would not be comfortable going to women’s spaces. Charlotte Clymer being the poster child. Before transitioning, Clymer identified as a male feminist but was metoo’d for misogyny and general creepy ones toward women, especially feminists. 3 years post transition Clymer Now is a chief trans activist, lobbies in Washington DC and good buddies with AOC et al.

I’m like, really? This misogynist is your poster child for trans rights, friendly with the progressive leaders in Washington?? It’s so depressing. Do they not do any vetting at all?

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