The police should not record us as hateful in secret

[Spero]

Dear all

At 2pm Tomorrow I will be launching something which I understand it is against the terms and conditions of this site to mention but i hope you will check out my Twitter page for more information - @SVPhillimore.

I know its a difficult time of the year to ask people to do more gardening but if you don't feel like actually hefting a spade I would be really grateful if you could amplify my information.

I seriously think we are currently facing the most significant threat to our fundamental civil liberties in my life time. My lawyers have written today to Wiltshire and the College of Policing to give them until November 20th to delete the recording made about me that I am 'hateful' and to withdraw the hate crimes guidance. If they won't - we go to court.

@littlbrowndog

Yes and you won’t even know you have been reported.

Sinister as fuck

No-one knows they've been reported for anything until their door gets kicked down. And even then they won't find out who reported them until it gets to court if at all.

@jj1968 are you actually reading a single response?

Someone takes offence to a comment made by a stranger on the internet. That individual reports the comment-maker to the police. The police record a 'non crime hate incident' on the comment-maker's record.

Do you really think that saying 'human beings cannot change sex' is indicative that a crime is likely to be committed by the person making this statement?

Lol at dappled.

Nope they are not

[quote DappledOliveGroves]@jj1968 are you actually reading a single response?

Someone takes offence to a comment made by a stranger on the internet. That individual reports the comment-maker to the police. The police record a 'non crime hate incident' on the comment-maker's record.

Do you really think that saying 'human beings cannot change sex' is indicative that a crime is likely to be committed by the person making this statement? [/quote]
No, I don't think it's likely a crime would be committed. But I don't think the police should be given discretion necessarily to decide to destroy all details of the report. Look I could call the police and say you nicked my car. That's patentetly absurd, you don't know me and I don't own a car. But the police could legally put it on your file that you had been reported for suspicion of car theft but no further acion took place. That's how policing has always worked, it's why they didn't need to change the law when they brought in the hate incident policy. And if suddenly several other randoms from the internet also reported you for nicking their car then there might be a reason for police to look into it. That's how investigations work. They can't do that if reports have to be destroyed because technically no crime has been committed.

Now in that incident the police might reasonably say fuck off thats absurd, and not record it. However the police could not be trusted to have that level of discretion when it came to reports of racism. Thats why these new guidelines were introduced after the Lawrence inquiry.

Wasn't it great to see how speedily the crowd funder reached its first target? People really understand the sinister implications of these records without accountability and the ease with which the deranged or bigoted can report innocent people.

Agree Persistent it's sinister overreach

jj I perceive that you have said 'fuck off' to a gay woman.
Hate incident.
I don't need to provide any proof to anyone about this.
The police cannot question the rationality of my report if I was to report it.

Clearly I'm not and this is bollocks but you have reached the bar of committing a hate incident, because I claim to have perceived you doing so.

@DeaconBoo

jj I perceive that you have said 'fuck off' to a gay woman. Hate incident. I don't need to provide any proof to anyone about this. The police cannot question the rationality of my report if I was to report it.

Clearly I'm not and this is bollocks but you have reached the bar of committing a hate incident, because I claim to have perceived you doing so.

No I've reached the bar of being accused of a hate incident. Just as if you accused me of theft, assault, being a noisy neighbour or all kinds of other things. Those accusations might be completely without foundation but a record would likely be kept at the local police station of the allegations.

What's the alternative? You go to the police and tell them I said fuck off to a lesbian and they say sorry we can't even write that down unless you have some proof of a crime being committed.

I find reading all the thousands of supportive comments under this and other recent crowd funders heartwarming as people are determined to stop these unprecedented levels of bullying and intimidatory behaviour.

Same here.

No I've reached the bar of being accused of a hate incident.

Again, you've misunderstood.
There is no test to the accustation. "Completely without foundation" is not a thing. The police cannot question it.

If you have done something (typed two words) and I perceive you as having done it due to 'hate', you have done it due to 'hate'. That is the 'foundation'.

@DeaconBoo

No I've reached the bar of being accused of a hate incident.

Again, you've misunderstood.
There is no test to the accustation. "Completely without foundation" is not a thing. The police cannot question it.

If you have done something (typed two words) and I perceive you as having done it due to 'hate', you have done it due to 'hate'. That is the 'foundation'.

No, you've been accused of doing it due to hate, you haven't been found guilty of anything and that information would only be revealed if it was deemed to be relevent by the local chief of police in very narrow circumstances. So the chances are no-one would ever even know about it, including the accused, much like a lot of the information police hold on people.

Police hold all kinds of non crime information, all of it potentially disclosable in an enhanced DBS. What do you think happened to all the spy cops intelligence reports? Anyone who has been politically active is likely to end up with their name on a file at a police station somewhere. Did you think we live in Trumpton?

Especially in this bleak and dark season it does warm the cockles of my heart to see nearly 24,000 flowers blooming in this very well dug patch.

No rain - allegedly - tomorrow so another fine day to be outside,
digging and generally investing in Spring blooms.

You seem convinced there is some test to find out if someone is 'innocent' or 'guilty' of a hate incident.

There isn't.

It isn't a crime.

What do you think - specifically - the difference is between being accused of committing a hate incident and having actually done it? Do you think there is a differentiation in the police guidelines?

And if there was, do you think there is a mechanism to get it deleted if you haven't actually done it?

What do you think - specifically - the difference is between being accused of committing a hate incident and having actually done it? Do you think there is a differentiation in the police guidelines?

The same as being accused of committing theft and having actually done it. If you did it the police would likely have taken action if there was enough evidence. Just as if the hate incident met the criminal threshold the police would have taken action. But they didn't, so if you applied for an enhanced DBS the local police chief would have a look, and if they acted correctly would think well they were accused of a hate incident/nicking a car but theres no evidence it took place/it was just an innocuous tweet, so I won't include this in the DBS check.

And yes, I think that give the police too much discretion. I think information relating to non violent or non sexual offences should be destroyed after a certain period and that non sexual/violent allegations should not be included in a DBS check. But that's not what ths case appears to be about, they seem to object to the police even recording the allegation and also think they have the right to know who made it. Neither has got a hope in hell of standing up in court, it would make policing near impossible.

The same as being accused of committing theft and having actually done it.

Incorrect.
I can't go to the police and have a theft recorded purely because I perceive it to have happened.
I can do that with a hate incident.

(If a hate incident meets a criminal threshold then obviously it is a crime and not an incident. You still seem to be conflating the two)

What this whole case strikes me as is another example of middle class people being absolutely furious when they are policed the exact same way everyone else always has been.

@DeaconBoo

The same as being accused of committing theft and having actually done it.

Incorrect.
I can't go to the police and have a theft recorded purely because I perceive it to have happened.
I can do that with a hate incident.

(If a hate incident meets a criminal threshold then obviously it is a crime and not an incident. You still seem to be conflating the two)

Yes you can, you can have an allegation of theft recorded against anyone, any time you want, and if the police believe your allegation is sincere then you will not be investigated for wasting police time. But with no evidence it will remain just that, an allegation, just as it would with a hate incident.

BINGO!

@jj1968

What this whole case strikes me as is another example of middle class people being absolutely furious when they are policed the exact same way everyone else always has been.

That's never an excuse for bad practice. Ever.

OK, so you are saying all hate incidents are just allegations?

(btw I didn't say 'an allegation of theft', I said 'a theft' - an actual crime)

Thanks for the reminder I have done some digging.

That's never an excuse for bad practice. Ever.

It's normal practice. Police record details of non proven allegations, police record details of their own suspicions and intelligence, police record details of people they think led or organised protests, or even attended them in some cases. They record huge amounts of details on someone they are seriously investigating and that person may never have committed a crime. My dad got stoppedand his car searched several times during the Ripper years because he was working odd hours. Everyone one of those stops would have been recorded. Collection of intelligence is how police solve crimes, but 99% of that intelligence will usually be worthless. It's still kept though and is still potentially disclosable.