The police should not record us as hateful in secret

[Spero]

Dear all

At 2pm Tomorrow I will be launching something which I understand it is against the terms and conditions of this site to mention but i hope you will check out my Twitter page for more information - @SVPhillimore.

I know its a difficult time of the year to ask people to do more gardening but if you don't feel like actually hefting a spade I would be really grateful if you could amplify my information.

I seriously think we are currently facing the most significant threat to our fundamental civil liberties in my life time. My lawyers have written today to Wiltshire and the College of Policing to give them until November 20th to delete the recording made about me that I am 'hateful' and to withdraw the hate crimes guidance. If they won't - we go to court.

You seem a bit....you know

Aww mimmymum finally signed up to Mumsnet

It's very heartwarming to take a look at that allotment which is flowering wonderfully - as they all do. So many people standing up for what is right.

Thanks for the update. I'm watching with interest.

I think it shows how vulnerable and how precious our essential freedoms are - and how easily some will give them up.

This makes me feel sick to my stomach. When the police are being described as dystopian, Kafka-esque, and Orwellian, we have a very serious problem.

Especially in this bleak and dark season it does warm the cockles of my heart to see nearly 24,000 flowers blooming in this very well dug patch.

Thanks again to all who dug.

@SunsetBeetch

Aww mimmymum finally signed up to Mumsnet

I'm so grateful for people like the OP who are able to take this issue on at source. Thank you!

Thank you Spero 🙏🏼

@Spero You are a warrior godess and I thank you.

So if someone goes to the police worried about abusive behaviour from a neighbour they feel is racist or homophobic and scared it might escalate then if the police do not feel the evidence threshold for an arrest has been met then they should be duty bound to either go and inform that neighbour or destroy any records of the allegation? That's absurd, and dangerously so.

jj The issue is not that there has been an allegation.

The issue is that currently the police seem able to keep secret records of anyone deemed to have hateful views. Deemed by anyone. They don't have to make allegations of actually breaking any laws.

Can you really not see how dangerous it is if the State (or unelected actors on behalf of the state) is allowed to record opinions as hateful, in secret, with no right to appeal, challenge or recourse? Can you not see the implications for freedom of speech?

I have dug.

jj, you've misunderstood.

@crunchermuncher

jj The issue is not that there has been an allegation.

The issue is that currently the police seem able to keep secret records of anyone deemed to have hateful views. Deemed by anyone. They don't have to make allegations of actually breaking any laws.

Can you really not see how dangerous it is if the State (or unelected actors on behalf of the state) is allowed to record opinions as hateful, in secret, with no right to appeal, challenge or recourse? Can you not see the implications for freedom of speech?

I have dug.

The police keep records of reports made to them. In the absence of evidence of a crime committed they are not acted on, but they are still often kept. They have had the powers to do this for decades. The only difference now is if the reported incident is believed to be motivated by hatred for one of the protected strands then it is called a hate incident, rather than an allegation of racism, or an allegation of homophobic harassment. And it was ruled legal in Harry's recent case.

But this case seems to go further and suggests the police should now be compelled to inform anyone who has had an allegation made against them and tell them who made it. Can you not see the potential risks in that?

Lets say someone, perhaps a lesbian woman living alone, goes to the police and says looks, I'm a bit worried about my neighbour, he's been staring at me aggresively and muttering what I think are homophobic slurs under his breath when we pass each other in the street. What are the police supposed to do, say well sorry thats not enough evidence, now we can keep a record of this report but that means we have to go round and talk to them and tell then what you told us or we have to detroy all details of this conversation? That's insane sorry, I mean I have some concerns with how long information can be held and for what purpose but how would the police be able to investigate or monitor anything under these circumstances?

You are doing great work Sarah

Takes a woman with courage to do what you are doing

And you are a courageous woman 💪💪💪💪❤️

@jj1968 but on the current basis, the police could simply accept the woman's word, undertake no investigation and record it as a 'non-crime hate incident' against the neighbour, who would no nothing about it and have no right to defend himself.

What if the woman is paranoid, and in fact the neighbour has muttered that she never takes her bins out or leaves food scraps for the pigeons? What if the woman has a vendetta against her neighbour and simply wants to report him maliciously? Should the police accept their versions of events, with no evidence, and label the man as someone 'motivated by hatred?'

If someone is shouting homophobic abuse then by all means investigate. But recording a hate incident against an individual, who has simply stated on Twitter that 'women don't have penises', because some random individual has taken offence? You think that's ok?

You are confusing hate crimes with hate incidents.

If someone is behaving in an intimidating way, that could constitute assault, whether or not it is motivated by hate.

A hate incident doesn't have to be anything illegal being alleged. It could be that my feelings are hurt by your refusal to condemn JKR on social media, for instance.

There are no rules about what constitutes a hate incident, it's completely subjective. And the police were adding as judge and jury, in secret.

In your example, yes a record of an allegation would be kept (I don't know how long for) but it would be just that, an unproven allegation. It's not a record of wrongdoing, it's a record of someone's complaint.

They are very different.

In your example, a crime has potentially been committed.

That’s it cruncher. Exactly

(Pressed post too soon) and it would be investigated.

Not simply recorded as a black mark against someone, in secret.

It's the apparent lack of checks and balances or proper process and the subjectivity of it that's so concerning.

Wasn't it great to see how speedily the crowd funder reached its first target? People really understand the sinister implications of these records without accountability and the ease with which the deranged or bigoted can report innocent people.
I find reading all the thousands of supportive comments under this and other recent crowd funders heartwarming as people are determined to stop these unprecedented levels of bullying and intimidatory behaviour. Of course vulnerable groups need protection - but it must be open and accountable - not modelled on the actions of an oppressive communist state.

The vast majority of people agree with you but most lack the guts to be as open, frank and expressive as you. Good luck.

In your example, a crime has potentially been committed.

Everyone who reports something to the police believes either a crime has been committed or there is a risk of a crime being committed. Sometimes there has been, sometime there hasn't, more often there is no evidence either way. But it will usually be logged. This allows the police tobuild up a picture of behaviour. Say some bloke is acting in a creepy and concerning way, repeatedly hanging around outside a school or playpark for example, but hasn't yet done anything criminal. Do you think the police should not be permitted to record any concerns brought to them until an actual crime has been committed? After all it may turn out that they were perfectly innocent and had no intention of committing a crime.

Yes and you won’t even know you have been reported.

Sinister as fuck

And that creepy bloke will have the allegation held on file at his local police station. And it is possible that information might be passed on in an enhanced DBS check. It's the down to potential employers to make a decision on how or whether to act on that.