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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

advice on a male teacher at DDs school please

511 replies

happydappy2 · 04/11/2020 12:48

My DD in year 9 used to have a wonderful female PE teacher who went on mat leave & might not come back. Currently a young male teacher has taken over and the girls feel uncomfortable when he watches them doing PE. One of them has looked at his social media & seen who he is following on instagram....lots of female body builders who pose in skimpy barely there bikinis (as is normal for body builders) but also some young women who pose in a very sexualised way in barely there bikinis....lots of boobs & bum on show. (Not topless but good as.) One girl has asked me if that is appropriate for a teacher & I'm struggling with how I feel about this. I would have thought all teachers have to have squeaky clean social media or set it to private. I've asked the headmaster for his views but wondered what others thought-am I over reacting or is this not really OK?

OP posts:
RealityNotEssentialism · 05/11/2020 09:16

@7catsaremycoven

Hi OP, if the girls are getting "vibes" and feeling the "ick" they need to be believed. Irrespective of the SM issue ANY child who expresses feeling uncomfortable around a certain adult should be believed and the relationship investigated. The fact that a number of the girls feel the same way is definitely a red flag 🚩

I completely understand that it may be "Ooh I don't like the way Sir looks at me" and a few girls jump on the bandwagon as it were, but we need to foster an open attitude and let all children know that their feelings are valid and they should trust their intuition. If the children don't feel that they're going to be believed they won't report and (worst case scenario) they are left vulnerable...

Feeling “the ick”? The thing is, you’re talking about a person’s career here where that person has done nothing apart from his job (from what OP reports). An investigation will have an impact on that person and will be incredibly stressful. I would actually say that the fact that many girls feel the same is less of a red flag because it doesn’t seem that he’s targeting anyone in particular and he’s certainly not ‘doing’ anything.

I also don’t think this is an issue of girls not being believed. Far from it - the OP has made quite clear that she also thinks the teacher is a wrong’un. In fact, vague assertions from the girls are being made into something much bigger. It’s incredibly dangerous to have a blanket policy that we will act on the smallest feeling that children have about someone. If he behaves inappropriately, of course investigate the allegations and act accordingly. But don’t take the view that if a group of girls say they have an ‘ick’ feeling about someone that this must mean that there is an underlying issue and launch an investigation.

I don’t for the life of me understand why anyone would want to teach. Shit pay, long hours and parental/student bullying. I feel so awful in hindsight over how we, as kids, treated some of our secondary school teachers. There were exceptions but in general we (state comp, late 90s, early 00s) were pretty vile to the ones that we didn’t like and we got away with it. We really aren’t living in an era where parents automatically believe the teacher and disbelieve the child and this wasn’t the case when I was at school either. Quite the opposite in fact.

We had a supply teacher for English who had a bit of a stammer and was generally a bit bumbling. He was unable to properly control the class and pupils would do/say awful things when his back was turned. One girl put a big fleece hoody on in class that wasn’t part of the uniform. He told her to take it off and she yelled at the top of her lungs ‘ewww, Mr X, did you just tell me to take my top off?’ so that it could be heard in the other classrooms that had the door open. Everyone laughed of course. That’s just one example of so so many of where everyone thought it would be fun to bully teachers. But the supply teacher had done absolutely nothing wrong and I don’t know how he managed to stick it for several months to be honest. I think some parents would be shocked at how their little darlings act at school.

happydappy2 · 05/11/2020 09:25

Reality do elaborate on how I've made it quite clear 'I think the teachers a wrong un' as you claim.....

I've done no such thing! Simply asked if its right his SM follows women showing a lot of boobs & bum (as well as the body builders in bikinis-as they naturally are dressed that way.)

OP posts:
Kcar · 05/11/2020 09:26

He’s a young man. He’s entitled to follow young women on his SM.

VulvaPerson · 05/11/2020 09:28

@NiceGerbil

What storm? This is an anonymous chat board.

Why is a woman saying, DD and a few of her friends feel uncomfortable suchs big thing?

Ok DD. Thanks for telling me. Not s lot i can do. Keep an eye out for your friends and tell me if anything else happens.

Nononono,!
So bad.

Girls that age are lying bitches who gossip and spread rumours. Because they fancy him. Or have taken against him. Maybe both! They are also guilty of stalking by looking at his public social media accounts! Someone somewhere ,(op? Hysterical evil girl? Wants him SACKED for sure. Even though... Whatever).

The reaction to a girl and her friends saying to a mum. 'the girls feel uncomfortable when he watches them doing PE' is really sad.

As I posted about at length earlier. The dismissal of children especially girls as essentially. What they say isn't worth shit. Cos. Bitches. Etc. Well that's served us so well in the past hasn't it.

Laugh it off. Benefit of the doubt. Imagining it. You just fancy him,! You just hate him! Etc etc etc

If he is young as pp have pointed out he should know to have his social media locked down.

And if a child comes and says Mr X makes me feel uncomfortable the way he looks at me... Telling her ^ is a lesson learnt. Ignore your instincts you're wrong. Don't bother me with this again, not interested.

Year after year after year we have read about local sports coaches, celebrities, men of the cloth, teachers, cab drivers, politicians... And on and on and on. Abusing children.

And here in fwr today we have the same old shit rolled out.

Girls are bitches
Girls lie
Girls imagine things
They fancy him
They hate him
They're trying to ruin his life
There's no evidence
You can't trust what girls that age say

And so on and so forth.

Fucking hell. The vitriol and assumptions aimed at girls no one knows vs the total and protection of a man no one knows

Is eye opening.

On the one hand. Mum he makes me and some other girls feel uncomfortable.

On the other hand. Well. All the stuff I just wrote that's assumed about these girls.

Yeah bit shit tbh.

I am only up to here, so if things have progressed a lot sorry for going backwards. But I couldn't help but comment at this post. Will continue reading (in amazement at times)

Spot. On.

Its weird isn't it.

I do not actually get the sense that the OP wats this guy fired. Or that she plans to complain about the 'feeling' some of the girls get from this guy. It looks like, shes open to whatever, she was informed of the social media thing which is clearly inappropriate, brought that up with the head and it is sorted. Every teacher I know has their social media accounts locked down, as it seems to be common for kids to do this, its an entirely sensible thing to do, to lock down incase you post something thats appropriate for your friends but would be innapropriate for 13 year olds to see you say/do. I thought this would be school policy everywhere so am a bit shocked to find out it is not. But thats besides the point, that part is dealt with, as thats the part OP raised. Rightly.

The rest, it appears she is wanting to..well talk about this. She has not named the teacher, its literally an unnamed random 'young male PE teacher', could be any of thousands. So posting the thread is not trying to whip up a storm or get him sacked or start a witch hunt. This is an anon guy. IF he was identifiable, it would be different. But he is not.

This mother, a bit concerned about some of her daughters friends and DD feeling a bit creeped out by a guy who they say 'looks at them' (which very well could be innocent of course, not seen anyone denying this) is talking about her DDs experience/her opinion on it. Without identifying anyone. On a feminism board.

Many women have replied, varying answers.

I do not see what she has done wrong?

Nor what the girls have done to deserve the many many posts along the lines of 'girls are bitchy', 'they must fancy him', 'its obviously nothing' and such?!

And many 'well what do you expect from a 'feeling'?, 'you want him sacked?!' , 'you just want a female teacher' and so on.

Its massively odd reading for a board focussed on women and girls.

I am not understanding the angst, from certain quarters. This guy is at no risk from us talking, maybe talking about our own experiences, talking about the gut feelings we have had (that might have been right or wrong) and so on. We are not saying all guys are creepy. Nor all male teachers are bad. Nothing at all like that.

WHAT is so wrong about the thread? I must be missing something big here.

Veterinari · 05/11/2020 09:31

@happydappy2

Reality do elaborate on how I've made it quite clear 'I think the teachers a wrong un' as you claim.....

I've done no such thing! Simply asked if its right his SM follows women showing a lot of boobs & bum (as well as the body builders in bikinis-as they naturally are dressed that way.)

Yep and totally ignored the girls' discomfort and whether there could be a genuine safeguarding concern in the process, by not actually asking why your DD is uncomfortable. Are you entirely disinterested in her feelings?
Kcar · 05/11/2020 09:33

Why did you change your story op? You said in your first post that a girl asked you if it was appropriate and yet now you’re saying it was a boy. Which is it?

RealityNotEssentialism · 05/11/2020 09:34

@Whatwouldscullydo

Sadly, quite a lot of the time the feelings were wrong. I used to think my 15 year old friend who had a 28 year old boyfriend was super cool and grown up (he wasn’t a teacher). It’s only in hindsight that I can see how damaging and wrong that was

I used to spend a great deal of time going out if my way to prove everyone "wrong" even as a teen. Always thinking to myself I was being unkind or unfair or they haven't done anything. It didn't end well. I got into alot of jams. Situations I never would have gotten into if I'd listened to my gut feelings instead of talking myself out of them.

I certainly never found people creepy because they were old or tall or male or eccentric or whatever. I.was the school weirdo obsessed with horror films so weird didn't phase me in the slightest.

I'm.jusy saying we shouldn't be so quick to dismiss feelings all the time. Its not 100 percent, but certainly whenever I've had them, I've been right in some way, more often than I.was wrong. My mistake was not having the feelings, it was ignoring them.

I haven't said fire the guy. Nor would I push it any further.

But I wouldn't tell my child to not be " a silly little girl" or whatever other accusations are being thrown aroung about these girls either.

One day, probably not with this teacher , maybe not even at school ,.but someday,.somewhere those feelings could be the difference between being safe or not.

So we do need to be careful about how we dismiss them ..

You sound like you were a lovely teen actually! I don’t think you represent the majority though. There’s a lot of peer pressure to be like the ‘cool crowd’ and they don’t tend to be that kind, sadly. The fact that bullying is rife in many schools is testament to that. Pupils who bully other pupils for being ‘different’ will often also bully the teachers that they view as ‘different’.

I think it’s entirely possible to teach teens to be wary, trust their instincts but still be kind. So teach them that you never accept a lift from a teacher, chat to them online or go anywhere alone with them but that you also give people the benefit of the doubt and don’t seek to demonise them just because you have a ‘bad feeling’.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 05/11/2020 09:41

No wonder men get away with a whole range of inappropriate behaviours given some of the replies on this thread.

He should have his social media locked down so students can't see it (no matter who he follows) and if girls are uncomfortable around him then they should be listened to. Does not mean he should be sacked, but the girls should be allowed to articulate why they are uncomfortable.

DownThePlath · 05/11/2020 09:49

No wonder men get away with a whole range of inappropriate behaviours given some of the replies on this thread.

Yawn.

RealityNotEssentialism · 05/11/2020 09:51

@happydappy2

Reality do elaborate on how I've made it quite clear 'I think the teachers a wrong un' as you claim.....

I've done no such thing! Simply asked if its right his SM follows women showing a lot of boobs & bum (as well as the body builders in bikinis-as they naturally are dressed that way.)

But this happened weeks ago and you’ve already reported it and it’s been dealt with. Why are you still invested in it and asking for advice when you’ve already reported the SM thing?
Noideawottodo · 05/11/2020 09:52

No wonder men get away with a whole range of inappropriate behaviours given some of the replies on this thread

Sorry, I missed the bit where this teacher was doing anything inappropriate?

Kcar · 05/11/2020 09:56

The op hasn’t asked the girls why they’re uncomfortable.

Her story has changed multiple times as well.

Whatwouldscullydo · 05/11/2020 10:02

reality

I think as far as teens go I probably gave my parents a few heart attacks. My small group of friends would have ticked every weirdo/outcast box at the time. Kids weren't that nice to us so I was probably overly nice and overly trusting of others as a result so they didn't have any more reason to dislike me...well besides going with the class weirdo thing, figured I may as well have some fun with it Grin

Coupled with what I still view as an overly negative and overly judgmental view of other people from my parents ir made me make even more of an effort to be nice to and trust people.

We went drinking in the pubs we were warned against ,

I dated an raf guy at 16/17 to prove they weren't all full on and sex crazed ( he was a bit too full on)

When my teacher told me not to talk to a man outside our classroom every day ( I used to talk to him and stroke his dogs) I had no idea why she was so worried about me talking to the nice man.with the dogs.

I also had zero self confidence so if that kinda stuff did happen they didn't fancy me anyway so I was safe )

An instructor hit on me on a school trip when I was 14/15, I thought I was the problem because all the other girls were practically flirting with theirs and I didn't like him hitting on me i wondered wHt was weing with me. , I'd been talking to him with my friend to pretty much prove how ridiculous it was the other girls were so " boy crazed " and its perfectly normal to just talk to men without fancying them etc

So many things over the years right up until my twenties happened by " accident" because I was so sure they wouldn't be like that.

I'm.still not sure if where like is between being fair and nice and listening to the gut feelings, but I do make sure I listen now ajd worry less abkut appearing "on guard"

DownThePlath · 05/11/2020 10:03

@Kcar

The op hasn’t asked the girls why they’re uncomfortable.

Her story has changed multiple times as well.

She still can't tell us which posters are men either Confused though apparently it was "clear from a mile off"
RealityNotEssentialism · 05/11/2020 10:03

Does not mean he should be sacked, but the girls should be allowed to articulate why they are uncomfortable

I don’t get the impression that nobody is listening to the girls- it’s just that they can’t articulate, beyond that he watches them, anything that would warrant any intervention. The OP certainly is listening to them and has already gone to the head about it. All the comments about men getting away with sexual abuse are weird because surely we don’t want a situation where we label someone just because a child expresses a dislike for them. My 3 yo nephew told my sister he didn’t like me the other day and screamed whenever I came near him. Absolutely no idea why (nothing had happened) and the next time I saw him he was fine. Just because kids sometimes express a dislike for certain adults doesn’t mean that we automatically need to assume something is wrong. As I’ve said numerous times, at this age, you need to be much more worried about the teachers they DO like.

LolaSmiles · 05/11/2020 10:05

He should have his social media locked down so students can't see it (no matter who he follows) and if girls are uncomfortable around him then they should be listened to. Does not mean he should be sacked, but the girls should be allowed to articulate why they are uncomfortable
I agree. Unfortunately there's several posters who seem to think that its unreasonable to ask the girls to articulate what he's doing and almost refuse to consider that groups of students can, and do, create gossip about staff, male or female, if they don't like them.

I remember a teacher who was deemed creepy because some students realised he had an unusual interest. It was historical reenactments, LARPing, gaming type hobbies. Following that bit of information quite a few girls in the year above decided he was creepy and he apparently looked at them funny, was a perv etc. This filtered into other year groups and I sat in lessons where students were complaining it's hot, the windows were open and they were wearing their school jumper. He told the class that if we were warm then we should take our jumpers off but otherwise to get on with our work. By lunch some people were claiming he was telling girls to take their tops off. I really felt for him. After a couple of months it all died down, but some students were quite unpleasant.

There has to be a sensible approach where nobody decides this guy is an unprofessional wrong'un based on vague accusations in teenage gossip (and the fact they don't like his social media), and dismissing what students say on the grounds that year 9 girls are bitchy drama queens.

VulvaPerson · 05/11/2020 10:21

Sadly, quite a lot of the time the feelings were wrong. I used to think my 15 year old friend who had a 28 year old boyfriend was super cool and grown up (he wasn’t a teacher). It’s only in hindsight that I can see how damaging and wrong that was

Been there, I spent my last couple of years at school so jealous of one of my mates. From being 13 she had an older boyfriend who was so cool and drove and gave her money and sometimes drugs and bought her alcohol, and sometimes would buy it for us too, if they weren't off somewhere shagging. She was soo lucky. We all thought.

Looking back it makes me feel ill. He was 30 when they got together. A clear predator. But no, he was great.

I would agree that its easier for the charming ones, the ones who are your friend and get along with everyone and such. But thats not to say its always the charming friendly guy. Falling into that trap is as bad as falling for the 'they always seem creepy' one. No way to know. I fucking wish there was.

AndThatsNotRight · 05/11/2020 10:32

@RealityNotEssentialism

Moreover in my experience when female pupils find male teachers creepy it's usually because they are.

Hmmm. I’m not sure this is true. Often the ‘creeps’ were just people who were a bit weird, eccentric, or social misfits. The ones who in hindsight actually crossed lines tended to be quite charming and socially confident men. At secondary school, everyone used to go on about a science teacher who apparently used to rub himself up against the desks. He was in his 50s and had suffered a disability after an accident and used to lean on his desk as a result because he had trouble standing for too long. On the other hand, the young good-looking geography teacher who loads of the girls fancied started dating a 16-year old former pupil weeks after she left school. Yet, it was the former who was labelled a weird pervert, not the latter. Not saying it’s always like this but generally teenage girls don’t have particularly good intuition about predators, which is why they are such prime targets.

I think you went to my school...
VulvaPerson · 05/11/2020 10:42

@Noideawottodo

No wonder men get away with a whole range of inappropriate behaviours given some of the replies on this thread

Sorry, I missed the bit where this teacher was doing anything inappropriate?

But..Spartacus didn't say the teacher HAS done anything innappropriate?

I kind of feel like I am reading a different thread sometimes, and am unsure if its sleep depreivation and meds combo, or if I just..don't get it or something.

Seems clear, again, that that reply was about the instant 'girls are bitchy', 'make things up', 'they just fancy him', 'they don't like him' and so on replies. Its the leap immediately to that kind ot thing being said about teen girls, that is the problem Spartacus was referring to, and the reason why many dodgy guys DO get away with so much. Not sure how acknowledging this means you must think the teacher is one of these dodgy guys though?

Also, me saying this does not mean I am saying no girls are bitchy, lie, etc. Incase its read that way.

(Am probably behind again now, and Spartacus can speak for herself, and probably has. Threads moving a bit quickly for me to keep up properly, especially in my current state!)

VulvaPerson · 05/11/2020 11:04

There has to be a sensible approach where nobody decides this guy is an unprofessional wrong'un based on vague accusations in teenage gossip (and the fact they don't like his social media), and dismissing what students say on the grounds that year 9 girls are bitchy drama queens.

There is. Though I do think its kind of unprofessional for a teacher to have their account searchable in that way, but thats mostly because all those I know in the profession are very strict on that, to the point where noone can search them at all on FB, and they have to send friend requests, noone can find them to request!

I genuinely have not seen anyone write him off as a wrong un because of the SM thing and the 'feeling'. I have however, seen much dismissing of the girls and what they have said, and many generalisations about teen girls also!

Have waffled a lot on here but my main thoughts are really..OP was correct to bring up the social media thing with the head. Even if there were not pics of half naked bodybuilders (and yes, can well believe it, the men seem to wear even less than the women on accounts DH follows!) its simply good practise for a teachers social media to not be so..open online. This protects the teacher more than anyone else really.

The teacher 'looking at' girls and making the uncomfortable, might be something, might be nothing. But whichever way, there is nothing that can be done about it at the min, nor does it seem the OP wanted anything done about that part anyway. At the same time, I refuse to discount the 'gut feeling' that girls (and probably boys too, only hear about it from women/girls though really) sometimes get. I also refuse to write off their feelings because they are teen girls who will no doubt sometimes like drama like all teens do. I find the leaping to insulting teen girls bizarre for FWR. But I do see a lot of new faces which could explain this. If people did join to post here, welcome and please stay on MN! More the merrier.

As a side note too though, I have been increasingly uncomfortable with how threads about women/girls go on this board these days. Too much NAMALT and such going on..for the area of the site this board is in, but thats my issue!

The constant insistence on 'she didn't ask anything more about feeling uncomfortable' constantly is annoying too. Given many many women cannot quite articulate what 'that feeling' is, teens are unlikely to be able to. I still have no idea how to explain it myself, but the only time I ever ignored my gut, it was the wrong thing to do. Thats not to say, again, that theres anything dodgy here. Just that I know 'the feeling' well, and in my own experiece, the only time I ignored it, I shouldn't have.

Finally, I still want to see where OP has said she wants the guy sacked, or anything similar to that. She did say her 'preference' would be a female teacher. I would agree, when DD is a teenager, I would prefer her having a female PE teacher and assume the school will facilitate this wherever possible. I have also not seen the witchunt thats claimed.

So yeah. In short, he has done nothing wrong besides have his SM account open really. There might be more to this, there might not be. He should not be written off as a perv because of a feeling and posting pics of bikini clad women. Equally they should not immediately be assumed liars, drama seekers, etc just because they are teenage girls. Nor should the mother be accused of all kinds of vendettas because she wishes to talk about the whle thing on the feminist chat board (without identifying anyone, so no harm done as its just a chat). And the thread, if nothing else has been a great read and one of the most interesting ones I have seen on here in a good while! So cheers to all really.

Possibly another huge waffly post, but am on a roll with essays today it seems Hmm

happydappy2 · 05/11/2020 11:10

Kcar you seemed determined to attack me-I haven't changed the story in the slightest-just clarified where questions were asked. I don't owe you any further answers.

I have never said I want the teacher sacked-nor would I wish that-I have been canvassing opinion regards if his SM was appropriate bearing in mind he teaches teenage girls.

This thread has been illuminating for sure!

OP posts:
Kcar · 05/11/2020 11:21

You have changed your story and I’ve asked you why. I haven’t attacked you. I’ve pointed out discrepancies and asked you why

The teacher definitely should have his SM as locked down as possible. And it is good that the head has raised that with him.

The rest of what you’ve posted is a lot of froth about nothing. You have no evidence he’s done anything and you haven’t even gone about it the right way at all.

That’s what comes across,to me the most - instead of going to the school and saying he is making the girls feel uncomfortable, and taking your daughter and getting her to describe what is making her feel uncomfortable, you,went in to the school about his insta having body builders on it.

happydappy2 · 05/11/2020 11:28

Kcar for the last time....lots of female body builders who pose in skimpy barely there bikinis (as is normal for body builders) but also some young women who pose in a very sexualised way in barely there bikinis....lots of boobs & bum on show-as I posted in the OP.

Its not just the body builders. Thats the whole point.

OP posts:
Kcar · 05/11/2020 11:31

My DD posts pics of herself on sm in bikinis.

As far as I’m aware, there is nothing wrong with a teacher following her, or indeed my DD following other young women who post in gym kit or bikinis, or young men in budge smugglers.

Loads of young women pose in ways that show off their bodies and put the photos up on social media. If I had their bodies I might do it too.

There is nothing wrong with the fact that he follows young women who do this. It is not any indicator of his behaviour towards his pupils.

Motherofthreequeens · 05/11/2020 11:32

@happydappy2

Reality do elaborate on how I've made it quite clear 'I think the teachers a wrong un' as you claim.....

I've done no such thing! Simply asked if its right his SM follows women showing a lot of boobs & bum (as well as the body builders in bikinis-as they naturally are dressed that way.)

Your sole focus is in his SM when actually it should have been on the feelings he was supposed to giving the girls.

It’s that that has bothered you the most.

What’s on his SM account is no business of yours.

You know men can fancy women in bikinis and then and go a teach young girls P.E with out being a sexual predator tight??

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