So, the sex "work" "debate"

[FizzyDizzy121]

Having looked through a lot of older threads here, I'm asking for some help.

Do you have a DP or family member that you fundamentally disagree with on a topic as black and white (to me) as sex "work"?

In my younger years, I was very much in favour of choice feminism, including in areas such as prostitution. I believed that the pushback was motivated by our issues around sex and that if a woman (usually) wants to run a business that way, supply and demand right? I did argue for better protections, H&S involvement etc.

Now, my whole approach changed a few years back. Buying consent makes me very, very uneasy and I would argue is a form of coercion/distress rather than freely given. Men (usually) who "visit" prostitutes are having sex with someone they KNOW wouldn't have sex with them if there wasnt money involved which is dodgy on so many grounds.
And all that is before we get to the amount of assaults, trafficking etc involved.

My DP is pretty left leaning (as am I) and views all work as unjust. Humans shouldn't have to be coerced to do labour in order to pay for essentials like shelter or food. And he sees sex "work" as within this bracket. Its exploitation but not any different than a retail worker for example. He says he'd be happy for his relative to be involved in sex "work", he argues the money changing hands is not buying the woman but the labour of the woman (I.e. the sex) for a set amount of time.

How do you respond to such thinking? Does it impact show you think of the other person?

Any thoughts/comments gratefully received

I worked for an NGO providing education for girls in the developing world. They attempted to add a clause to the employment contracts prohibiting them from prostituting women in the locality they worked. The men, local and expats refused. Like our pigeon here they were convinced it was their right and there was no conflict with the mission and their job of educating girls out of the need to resort to this degradation.

If you agree that that is fine, then you need to make the argument that sexual services are a special case, which you haven't yet done

Well it's illegal still in plenty of places, except Leeds of course.
I think in most jobs that I've done apart from prostitution, there was very little risk of pregnancy, anal tears, vaginal tears, semen in an orifice, being beaten up for (pick reason) not being paid for (pick reason) being arrested, being trafficked, being given various STDs, being kidnapped, being killed.

I'll ask again, someone in need asks me whether they can do some odd jobs in my yard for extra cash, am I scum for saying yes, and is the transaction not a consensual one?

If you agree that that is fine, then you need to make the argument that sexual services are a special case, which you haven't yet done

People on this thread have repeatedly explained to you why selling your body for sex is unlike any other job. Repeatedly. Across many different domains of difference.

am I scum

Yes

To be clear, I'm not saying sex work is 'like' this job or that job, only in regards to the working for money and consent aspect, there is no difference

You've made false equivalence on other domains. Again, people have also explained why prostitution IS different in terms of working for money and consent. There is enormous difference, due both to the nature of the 'work' (sex), the nature of the dynamic between the punter and the client, and due to the likely circumstance of the woman. All of this has been clearly articulated throughout this thread.

Guru

And Escape that makes me so . All punters are scum, but there ought to be a special circle of hell for NGO workers who use prostitutes.

Most men aren't like that. It's how you raise them. My son knows what consent is. He is 11.

Most practice safe sex.

Most are from disadvantaged backgrounds, many have poor mental health and poor physical health and many have experienced abuse and trauma. But yeah, I bet they're all following Health & Safety guidelines from the comfort and privilege of a back street...

'It is estimated there are 60,000-80,000 sex workers in the UK, the majority of whom are women. Female street sex workers have poor physical and mental health. They are a socially disadvantaged group, which can prevent them from accessing the care they need. Interviews with 10 female street sex workers showed that childhood trauma, often relating to sexual abuse and abandonment, left them vulnerable to becoming trapped in a cycle of street sex work and drug dependency, causing them poor mental health throughout their life.

The women attributed their poor health and wellbeing to their personal histories, in particular to intimate partner violence in adult life and traumatic childhood events, including sexual abuse, neglect, loss and rejection. Other significant contributing factors were:
Losing their children to social services; Housing difficulties; Addiction to alcohol and crack cocaine.'

www.nursingtimes.net/roles/mental-health-nurses/meeting-female-street-sex-workers-physical-and-mental-healthcare-needs-09-12-2019/

The user I met was like that description. Passion to him was a mawkish song about lurve.

The irony is the disassociation was actually making him impotent.

I have read a lot about the escalation of degradation ALL women are at risk of experiencing being due to porn's hideous domination of the internet.

I've been talking to my DSs for some time about this. They hate me mentioning it but it's my job.

So to say that it's the only job where you have to have body fluids in your mouth is wrong.

I've got a spare five minutes and a sense of humour so I'll ask:

jennywhitehorses - could you name a couple or three other jobs (apart from prostitute) where you might reasonably expect "body flui.....

No. Lost the will to live half way thru.

still threads like this are always a good reminder of how some men see women..

That's a cracking point.

I'd just smell it but yeah, nice answer butterer.

(Don't get me started on urine.)

@thanksgivingchi

I find it odd that some men think so little of sex that they are determined it is the same as clearing leaves but at the same time value it so highly that they are prepared to buy it from strangers who are only having it because their consent has been bought.

Their sex lives must be really awful.

God, THIS a thousand times.

I am familiar with Soho, and there are no bars on the windows. All penetrative sex is with a condom, and if the man doesn't accept that - that's tough. He has to walk away. It's a myth that men can do just what they want to a woman. In Soho there's no kissing, no fingering, no 69.

It sounds to me that you have no practical knowledge of what prostitution involves, only what you have read. It is harmful to women to tell people that a customer can get anything he wants. An escort who goes to a hotel room doesn't want to have to explain that he can't have sex without a condom just because someone said so on Mumsnet.

The sex workers in Soho rock up at about 11 am (or used to before pandemic) and when they look out the window they see stall holders who've been there since dawn (if they're in Berwick Street) in the cold and dark.

There's a difference between oral sex with a condom, oral sex without a condom (OWO) and CIM. Most don't do CIM and when they do the man has to pay extra.

You do realise, Jenny, that there are at least 2 exited prostitutes on this thread?

The brothel round the corner from me when I lived in a rough inner city area certainly had bars on the windows.

That mumsnet is the same as punternet clearly

These threads always attract punters/ pimps/ apologists wanting to persuade readers that everything about choicy-choice prostitution is lovely. I don't think they have any idea how they come across. Their moral compass got broken so long ago they just don't realise the extent to which a normal person of either sex recoils in horror.