So, the sex "work" "debate"

[FizzyDizzy121]

Having looked through a lot of older threads here, I'm asking for some help.

Do you have a DP or family member that you fundamentally disagree with on a topic as black and white (to me) as sex "work"?

In my younger years, I was very much in favour of choice feminism, including in areas such as prostitution. I believed that the pushback was motivated by our issues around sex and that if a woman (usually) wants to run a business that way, supply and demand right? I did argue for better protections, H&S involvement etc.

Now, my whole approach changed a few years back. Buying consent makes me very, very uneasy and I would argue is a form of coercion/distress rather than freely given. Men (usually) who "visit" prostitutes are having sex with someone they KNOW wouldn't have sex with them if there wasnt money involved which is dodgy on so many grounds.
And all that is before we get to the amount of assaults, trafficking etc involved.

My DP is pretty left leaning (as am I) and views all work as unjust. Humans shouldn't have to be coerced to do labour in order to pay for essentials like shelter or food. And he sees sex "work" as within this bracket. Its exploitation but not any different than a retail worker for example. He says he'd be happy for his relative to be involved in sex "work", he argues the money changing hands is not buying the woman but the labour of the woman (I.e. the sex) for a set amount of time.

How do you respond to such thinking? Does it impact show you think of the other person?

Any thoughts/comments gratefully received

I think prostitution is exploitation and paid rape.

I don’t know any girl who grow up wishing to be prostitutes. If ‘sex work’ was so great - women who weren’t destitute, pimped, addicts, sex trafficked etc... would do it.

Also - not sure if you have any girls in your family - but if sex work is work - would your DH be happy for DDs / nieces etc - if needing benefits when they grow up - having benefits docked if they refuse to give a strange bloke a blow job as a way of earning money?

A woman’s body is not a place of work.

If that woman could press the pause button and decide without consequence (ie she still gets the money) not to do it, then fine. She might be choosing.

Anything less is exploitation.

Thanks both.

His response to the point about middle/upper class women choosing it as a "career" route is that this is entirely due to the stigma around the job not the job itself.

@chickenyhead it's an interesting point. My challenge there is that I do not want to have sex with anyone who doesnt want to have sex with me. The thought that this is common practice really concerns me

If all work is exploitation what would we humans do every day? Who would provide food and shelter for everyone? Somebody would have to work. If the government provides for us some group of people is still doing work. How would it be decided who those people are?

People who make this argument should imagine themselves being paid to have sex with any random rather than some hypothetical female relative. Does he imagine women are less capable of being repulsed by having sex with men they don't find attractive?

@FizzyDizzy121

But clearly you don't want to have sex with everyone who would choose to have sex with you.

Sex workers don't get to choose without consequence, hence it isnt true consent.

His argument is that having sex for money is no different than say, lifting bags of cement around for money.

Oh right. So by that rationale, he would be fine with you paying a male escort for sex if ever he doesn't fancy it?

Yuck

@FizzyDizzy121

His argument is that having sex for money is no different than say, lifting bags of cement around for money.

Then why don't the jobcentre sanction all the men and women claiming benefits for not becoming self employed as prostitutes or applying for jobs as escorts and lap dancers etc?

Why doesn't he do it as his 'job'?

And he can say hed be happy for a relative to do it but I'm sure if his wife or daughter started doing it he wouldn't be happy.

I agree with PP on this. Would he be happy to do it? If not, why not? And I’d be very clear that (assuming he is straight) this would involved a strange man penetrating him for money. Maybe £20-£50.

He says he'd be happy for a relative to do it - but would he be prepared to rent out his own arse to all comers?

If he can't, hand on heart, say he considers that to be exactly the same as him being employed to hook bags of cement around, then he's a raving fucking hypocrite.

Cross post with loads of other people.

Im left leaning but I don’t quite understand this bit:

“Humans shouldn't have to be coerced to do labour in order to pay for essentials like shelter or food.”

Where does he imagine the food or shelter will come from if no one is expected to work? People have always worked to produce what they need to survive - or do other work that can be exchanged for necessities.

I agree on a lighter form of this concept which is that there are huge problems with capital being held only by a few rich capitalists. But someone ultimately needs to do the work to produce the clothing food and shelter we all need. ultimately the goal of work is to meet human needs. We should recognize the dignity of that work and to help people find work that is rewarding and dignified.

The question with sex work is whether it can be called dignified or meeting a valid need. I say no, because it requires a non-consensual physical violation of a woman’s body, and because men do not need to put their dick into a woman. Similarly selling your organs (or use of your womb?) for a living would be undignified and coercive. Bodily violations in general would fall into this category.

Usually when people bring up this critique I ask for an example of men’s work that they’d consider equally undignified and it’s often something like “trash collector”. Wtf? There’s nothing undignified about cleaning up messes. Really shows what men think. Ask your dp for examples.

My DP is pretty left leaning (as am I) and views all work as unjust. Humans shouldn't have to be coerced to do labour in order to pay for essentials like shelter or food. And he sees sex "work" as within this bracket. Its exploitation but not any different than a retail worker for example. He says he'd be happy for his relative to be involved in sex "work", he argues the money changing hands is not buying the woman but the labour of the woman (I.e. the sex) for a set amount of time

How do you respond to such thinking? Does it impact show you think of the other person?

My response would be there's no arguing with stupid and I frankly wouldn't waste my time with anyone who put forward such rubbish.

The only exception might be if I were about 30 years younger and the person was drop dead gorgeous and I fancied a short term, meaninglessness fling.

Ask him if he would like to have complete strangers who he would have zero attraction to stuff every orifice in his body with their flesh and take zero notice of any pain he may be experiencing and that they may do things to him that he personally finds utterly repulsive.

He is the worst type of man on the left, met many in my days as a trade union steward. They think they know about equality but this kind of thinking makes them the worst kind of misogynist, ones who should know better. My experience on the left pushed me further towards my feminist ideals.

When you say sex work, are we solely talking about prostitution?

I know some very young women who are in the Onlyfans market, and I also was close friends with escorts / prostitutes for quite a while. I've not made my mind up about it yet.

Yes. I agree with the others OP. If he is so happy that people do this like lifting a bag of cement, why doesn’t he do it. But also as a vessel for male sex where all the power is with the person with the penis that can be used to penetrate any orifice.

Ask him just that. Will he rent out his body to be penetrated wherever the renter wants and for how long?

Oh, yes. And ask him if he expects his boss to provide health and security because he’d be likely to get none at all. And a pension? And ask him just how long he thinks his career would be?

I am an ex lapdancer and also know many women who were/still are in the sex trade. If you have any questions i am more than happy to answer from my perspective. (Please no hate, I now have a family and have mixed views on my past).

Would he want his (hypothetical) daughter to go to college to study sex work? If not why not?

Julie Bindel has written about and investigated the realities of prostitution for years. Here are some examples:

www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-sex-worker-myth

www.independent.co.uk/voices/prostitution-sex-trade-punters-pimps-womens-rights-exploited-hiv-condom-rule-a7913121.html

If you google her name & prostitution there are loads more.

I shared these articles on the Amnesty thread which expose the problems with the organisation's policy on sex 'work':

www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2015/jul/28/amnesty-international-prostitution-sex-work-human-trafficking

www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/5-reasons-decriminalization-protects-sex-workers-rights-91292/

www.independent.co.uk/voices/prostitution-sex-trade-punters-pimps-womens-rights-exploited-hiv-condom-rule-a7913121.html

You can either believe in enthusiastic consent or sex work as work. The two aren't compatible.

Well I'm guessing that this is a line of work that he hasn't done,
Hasn't suggested that you do,
And hasn't suggested either of you use when you don't fancy sex together?

It is plainly nothing like moving cement bags around to build houses.

I'm interested to know the general consensus on here about women who make the "choice" (depending on whether or not you think it's a choice) to become sex workers and don't get involved through sex slavery / pimps / addiction etc.

@CaraDuneRedux “would he be prepared to rent out his own arse to all comers?”
Ask him this question OP - I’m guessing he would not. 😂

does he think people who wont do 'sex work' but can find no other job should have their benefits taken away? I mean if its just work no reason for women and men to turn it down is there?

You can either believe in enthusiastic consent or sex work as work. The two aren't compatible.

Great point.

Yes. I agree with the others OP. If he is so happy that people do this like lifting a bag of cement, why doesn’t he do it.

I would imagine that people with this view would argue that they don’t do it for the same reason they don’t lug around bags of cement - they don’t want to. But they have no objection to other people doing it, and don’t think those people are necessarily being exploited.
Please don’t shout at me, I am only theorising what someone with that view might say, it’s not my view!