So, the sex "work" "debate"

[FizzyDizzy121]

Having looked through a lot of older threads here, I'm asking for some help.

Do you have a DP or family member that you fundamentally disagree with on a topic as black and white (to me) as sex "work"?

In my younger years, I was very much in favour of choice feminism, including in areas such as prostitution. I believed that the pushback was motivated by our issues around sex and that if a woman (usually) wants to run a business that way, supply and demand right? I did argue for better protections, H&S involvement etc.

Now, my whole approach changed a few years back. Buying consent makes me very, very uneasy and I would argue is a form of coercion/distress rather than freely given. Men (usually) who "visit" prostitutes are having sex with someone they KNOW wouldn't have sex with them if there wasnt money involved which is dodgy on so many grounds.
And all that is before we get to the amount of assaults, trafficking etc involved.

My DP is pretty left leaning (as am I) and views all work as unjust. Humans shouldn't have to be coerced to do labour in order to pay for essentials like shelter or food. And he sees sex "work" as within this bracket. Its exploitation but not any different than a retail worker for example. He says he'd be happy for his relative to be involved in sex "work", he argues the money changing hands is not buying the woman but the labour of the woman (I.e. the sex) for a set amount of time.

How do you respond to such thinking? Does it impact show you think of the other person?

Any thoughts/comments gratefully received

In a couple of instances it is similar to "lugging bags of cement..."

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/aug/11/uk-family-found-guilty-of-enslaving-homeless-and-disabled-people

However, if a sizable proportion of the building trade was like this, with vulnerable people being treated as slaves, then I'd hope the country would not be framing it as their choice and would instead be reflecting on how we got in such a mess as to allow people to be treated as less human.

However, building work needs to be done - so it's a false equivalence. Men don't actually need to be sticking their penis into vulnerable, non consenting women.

@DidoLamenting What is your opinion on male prostitution / sex work in that case?

Any women who chooses it when she has another option is complicit in supporting it.

Sadly, I feel there are very few who actually have other options as a proportion of sex workers. I used to think most women chose this back decades ago, but then I discovered just how prevalent the slavery side is and just how little option many women who choose this work have.

I have tried to work out the same thing - if a free choice (which i believe is very unlikely which is my main issue) why do i feel its different that someone paying me to use my body to carry out a task like heavy lifting. I know i do feel its different. I cant work out if its penetration. So no other paid job requires penetration. Nothing enters me to lift concrete or stack shelves or cut hair.
I also feel something around in most jobs i'm using my body to carry out a task - would my employer mind if i developed a lifting mechanism to get the job done? But in sex work somene else is using my body as their tool. I cant quite express what i mean.

*You're building a straw man here.
Sex workers can and do discriminate.
It's super common for sex workers to explicitly exclude black men, for example.

There was a spectacularly daft consultation a while back on a spectacularly daft private member's Bill at Holyrood seeking to legalise brothels, pimping etc. (My language, not theirs)

One of the questions was should there be an exemption from discrimination legislation?

Under present law prostitution would be pacta illicita so probably is exempt from accusations of discrimination

Even as a "legit" service provider, you are free to say that you don't want to refuse someone's business

That isn't an accurate statement. I refused to act once for a group of investors of Pakistani origin because I suspected they were involved in money laundering. That is a legitimate refusal. I'm not legitimately entitled to refuse to act for investors of Pakistani origin simply because they are Pakistani. There has to be a reason which has nothing to do with their being Pakistani.

I don’t think paid prostitution is rape. As a prostitute you have a choice even before the act takes place. It clearly has entered your mind that that is what you want to do (for complex reasons). We all have issues but if I ever was short of money or going through a tough time it would not cross my mind to become a prostitute because I need money if that was the case.

I think it’s a deeper issue. Bottom line is both parties have made an informed choice.

@Clymene I think stricter policing might protect sex workers from psychological damage (at least some) as from what I gathered based on the article you sent, the sex worker was predominantly traumatised by the violence and abuse that she encountered and had had to repeatedly deal with as there was no consequences for the people in question. So yes, I think protection of sex workers could help to reduce the psychological damage they may experience though I know it's not a perfect system.

[quote lousywithvirginity]@DidoLamenting What is your opinion on male prostitution / sex work in that case?[/quote]
Why do you think I might be in favour of male prostitution? Or think it's not as bad?

The same comments apply. It is degrading and debasing for the seller and ultimately coarsens and brutalises society as a whole.

@DidoLamenting No, I wasn't sure what you thought, so I asked. Thank you for your clarification.

Bottom line is both parties have made an informed choice.

There is a massive difference in feeling that you actually have a choice though. Do you honestly believe that the majority of sex workers are doing this because they have made a choice between career options? Like, it is either this or working for Sainsbury’s or being a cleaner?

And that once they start they feel they have the complete freedom to change careers?

Of course, what about the rather large number of trafficked sex workers.?

Wow, so many responses, thank you for your comments.

To answer some questions:

Would he be willing to do it?
He says yes, if he needed money and other work was not available. In the same way he would get a job outside of his profession if he needed a job and lost his.

Is he okay with his DP/children doing it?
Interestingly, he was not okay with the thought of me doing it but was fine with neices/mothers etc doing it.

It's not the same as other jobs/its buying a woman
This is exactly what I argue but it is a difficult uphill argument as PPs have mentioned. Is prostitution buying a person if there's a contract in place to set out what is acceptable etc? Or are you buying a service?

My DP likens it to conscription for men. Thoughts?

The point around women who choose to do sex "work"
For me, that is likely to be an increasingly small number. And to be able to choose to do this in a safe, secure way with the ability to have people around if something went wrong etc is almost a privilege to me. It also perpetuates the idea that sex is a supply and demand market which does not sit right with me when we see millions of women across the world forced into this. Moreover, with the stats we have on e.g. the extremely high prevalence of social services involvement with sex workers etc illustrates a pretty damning picture to me (I will dig out the research when I finish work).

My thoughts.

Pretty chilling from him no very chilling

Yuck

OP, I agree that the amount of people who do it by choice is low. However, I think it's a number that is hugely increasing particularly amongst young people, with a large number of celebrities (and my personal friends) taking part in sex work like Onlyfans or otherwise soliciting sexual contact for money online. It is nowadays seen as an acceptable choice, particularly as a way to put yourself through college or higher education.

I'm interested in hearing his points about conscription, I do think the army is an interesting comparison as I suppose in a way it is being paid for the usage of your body (even if it's a different context).

The fact that in most of the world, it predominantly female children as well as adult women - is he still OK with that. They are getting money for their family. The fact that it is inherently traumatising. The fact that women are trafficked to do it or are addicted to drugs or their UC hasn't come in or isn't enough as structurally women have the care of their children - is he still OK with all of that?

Lots of leftists get completely in a froth about women employing cleaners but no issue at all with sex work.

I dont agree with conscription either. Makes me feel sick to force boys to fight rich mens wars. Wars that are normally not even decided on a battlefield but round a conference table.

My DP likens it to conscription for men. Thoughts?

Does he think men are waging war on prostituted women who must be conscripted into the battle with them? He's probably right.

I don't agree with conscription but it is based on the idea that those who are capable are taking a turn at protecting their nation, so personal sacrifice for the public good.

This is not the same as making your body available for men to stick their dick in it. There is no personal sacrifice for the public good in that situation.

I'm starting to think your DP isn't nearly as bright as he thinks he is.

His view is that the current set up is that there needs to be huge improvements which would come with legalisation e.g. widespread use of video cameras to identify offenders who are violent, Health and Safety practices and guidance for the "workplace" etc. He thinks it would make it safer for women and would reduce trafficking.

@lousywithvirginity it's an interesting area. Again, for me, while it may be a really free choice for 5% of women, I worry about what impact that decision has on those not willingly considering it as an option. Do we get to a world where women are considered lazy or not to be trying every possible avenue for low income if they refuse to do some sort of sex work?

The conscription point is that (usually) men join the army and have to use and put their bodies at risk for the job. The career path is also overwhelmingly male. He wonders whether prostitution is the female equivalent and whether the only difference is national support for "our troops" and societal stigma around sex work

**to increase from a low income for example

You're building a straw man here.
Sex workers can and do discriminate.
It's super common for sex workers to explicitly exclude black men, for example.

Yes, that's why sex work is different to other work. If a shop refused to serve a customer purely on the basis that the customer was black, then that would be discrimination and the customer would probably have a good case to take the shop to court.

If 'sex work is work' and is just like any other job, then it's surely subject to the same discrimination laws etc. If its 'just like lugging around bags of cement' then would it be OK to refuse to provide that service to someone if they are black?

Good point made as well about believing that sex work is work not being compatible with enthusiastic consent. Even people who love their jobs have days when they aren't feeling enthusiastic about it, would rather be elsewhere and don't really want to do it.....

Ask him what he thinks of this picture of a 'Covid secure workplace' in Germany, where prostitution is legal.

The picture is a still from a video on Karen Ingala-Smith's twitter - it's pretty horrifying.

Does your dp work?