So, the sex "work" "debate"

[FizzyDizzy121]

Having looked through a lot of older threads here, I'm asking for some help.

Do you have a DP or family member that you fundamentally disagree with on a topic as black and white (to me) as sex "work"?

In my younger years, I was very much in favour of choice feminism, including in areas such as prostitution. I believed that the pushback was motivated by our issues around sex and that if a woman (usually) wants to run a business that way, supply and demand right? I did argue for better protections, H&S involvement etc.

Now, my whole approach changed a few years back. Buying consent makes me very, very uneasy and I would argue is a form of coercion/distress rather than freely given. Men (usually) who "visit" prostitutes are having sex with someone they KNOW wouldn't have sex with them if there wasnt money involved which is dodgy on so many grounds.
And all that is before we get to the amount of assaults, trafficking etc involved.

My DP is pretty left leaning (as am I) and views all work as unjust. Humans shouldn't have to be coerced to do labour in order to pay for essentials like shelter or food. And he sees sex "work" as within this bracket. Its exploitation but not any different than a retail worker for example. He says he'd be happy for his relative to be involved in sex "work", he argues the money changing hands is not buying the woman but the labour of the woman (I.e. the sex) for a set amount of time.

How do you respond to such thinking? Does it impact show you think of the other person?

Any thoughts/comments gratefully received

So he supports it if there were better H&S?

How does he see that working? Given the body fluids involved, and close contact, doesn't that mandate full body PPE? Having someone else in the room to ensure there's no assault?

Lets try it with an actual profession, eg. dentistry - should I be allowed to pay my dentist to not use gloves/mask/glasses when they're doing things in my mouth? Should they be allowed to pay me (or give me a discount) to not have to use gloves etc.? How would you feel if your dentist offered you a tenner off, but they weren't going to use gloves?

Does that sound like a professional service? Does that sound like something that would be allowed under H&S regulation? Or does that sound like a dentist that might be struck off? And that's just putting fingers in my mouth to perform dentistry. Not even asking to put a penis there so he can masterbate.

@FizzyDizzy121

Genuinely, he's supportive, kind, not entrenched in stereotypes, pulls his weight at home etc.

This is just one of these issues where we just cant agree. I'm honestly surprised it's his view. His main points seem to be:

1. people do jobs they dont want all the time
2. we ask people to use their bodies in ways that can cause harm (e.g. all the people that got cancer from removing asbestos for example) in lots of roles
3. you'd be buying a service from someone in the same way you could buy a massage and they could turn people down in the same way a masseur could
4. improvements to safety and regulation would be put in place to protect women
5. how is it different to asking soldiers to go to war and fight?

He's already said he'd be unhappy with seeing you move "careers" into "sex work". That's proof he doesn't see it as "just a job". It's also proof that he sees sex workers and other women as less than but that you're his property which he wouldn't want to see degraded or used by anyone else. If your electric went, I'd assume he'd be ok with you hiring an electrician. If you had a leak, I'm assuming he'd be happy with you hiring a plumber. If you found yourself sexually unfulfilled, I assume he'd be fine with you hiring a male escort. It's just a job, right? No emotional toll?

a large amount of celebrities offer porn or sexual content for money.

Name them.

Young men are also doing sex work, though I agree it's predominantly women.

If by 'predominantly' you mean at least 9 out of 10, then yeah.

And even the male 'sex workers' will overwhelmingly cater to a male 'clientele'.

@Icedpurple Trisha Paytas does full porn. Blac Chyna does something to do with feet fetishes. Tyler Posey (I think) did something about him naked playing guitar. Aaron Carter does nudes. Tyga does some sexual content I think (though not sure what that entails).

There's some more, these are a few examples of celebrities on Onlyfans @icedpurple.

[quote lousywithvirginity]@Icedpurple Trisha Paytas does full porn. Blac Chyna does something to do with feet fetishes. Tyler Posey (I think) did something about him naked playing guitar. Aaron Carter does nudes. Tyga does some sexual content I think (though not sure what that entails).

There's some more, these are a few examples of celebrities on Onlyfans @icedpurple.[/quote]
Never heard of any of them except - very vaguely - Blac Chyna. Seems to be a lot of Z listers doing very tame 'sex work' on this site which for some reason you feel the need to mention in every post.

Prostitution covers such a vast range of circumstances that I think generalising the morality of it is deeply unhelpful. At one end there are the trafficked sex slaves who have no choice in their actions, awful conditions and no reward and at the other there are women who willingly choose it as a profession as they can earn a serious salary for a few hours work a week and get to pick and choose their clients and what they will and won't do. The first should clearly never be allowed to happen but who are we to tell the second what they may or may not do with their body?

[quote lousywithvirginity]@Icedpurple Trisha Paytas does full porn. Blac Chyna does something to do with feet fetishes. Tyler Posey (I think) did something about him naked playing guitar. Aaron Carter does nudes. Tyga does some sexual content I think (though not sure what that entails).

There's some more, these are a few examples of celebrities on Onlyfans @icedpurple.[/quote]
I suppose by "celebrity", Purple means successful actors, singers, writers.

Not people with dubious "celebrity status" clinging on to fame with their fingernails and doing anything possible to remain in the public eye.

3) you'd be buying a service from someone in the same way you could buy a massage and they could turn people down in the same way a masseur could

So he might refuse to give his best friend's dad a blow job. Would he refuse to serve his best friend's dad if he worked in a coffee shop? Both those things are just work, right?

@NewUser123456789

Prostitution covers such a vast range of circumstances that I think generalising the morality of it is deeply unhelpful. At one end there are the trafficked sex slaves who have no choice in their actions, awful conditions and no reward and at the other there are women who willingly choose it as a profession as they can earn a serious salary for a few hours work a week and get to pick and choose their clients and what they will and won't do. The first should clearly never be allowed to happen but who are we to tell the second what they may or may not do with their body?

You might have had a point if the ratio of women being coerced or forced into prostitution over those who weren't wasn't completely overwhelming. What percentage would you say? 99% and 1%?

@icedpurple Trisha Paytas - 4.88 million subscribers and roughly 1.7 billion lifetime views on Youtube and appeared on Celebrity Big Brother.

Blac Chyna - dated Tyga and has kids with Kylie Jenner's half brother Rob Kardashian.

Tyler Posey- actor who starred in very successful show Teen Wolf.

Aaron Carter - Toured with the Backstreet Boys and did a lot of work with the Disney Channel. Was on Dancing with the Stars.

Tyga- previously dated billionaire Kylie Jenner, is a relatively well known rapper and some songs in the top 100# billboard.

Not sure I'd consider millionaires to be Z listers just because you don't know them. All I'm providing is evidence that not everyone who partakes in sex work is forced to, that's it.

The first should clearly never be allowed to happen but who are we to tell the second what they may or may not do with their body?

"We" - as in society/laws - tell people what they may or may not do with their body all the time. For example, we don't allow people to put certain substances into their bodies or to leave certain parts of their bodies uncovered in public. Do you think these laws should also be scrapped in the name of libertarianism?

[quote lousywithvirginity]@icedpurple Trisha Paytas - 4.88 million subscribers and roughly 1.7 billion lifetime views on Youtube and appeared on Celebrity Big Brother.

Blac Chyna - dated Tyga and has kids with Kylie Jenner's half brother Rob Kardashian.

Tyler Posey- actor who starred in very successful show Teen Wolf.

Aaron Carter - Toured with the Backstreet Boys and did a lot of work with the Disney Channel. Was on Dancing with the Stars.

Tyga- previously dated billionaire Kylie Jenner, is a relatively well known rapper and some songs in the top 100# billboard.

Not sure I'd consider millionaires to be Z listers just because you don't know them. All I'm providing is evidence that not everyone who partakes in sex work is forced to, that's it.[/quote]
A bunch of YouTubers and reality stars, or spouses of reality stars doing 'naked guitar' means that 'sex work' is a valid choice?

Did you just Google them or do you have all that info to hand?

Get back to us when Adele or Nicole Kidman - ie actual celebrities - think it would be a great career move to strip off on that site you always seem to mention.

@IcedPurple I knew who all of them were, but I googled specifics as I can't recall subscriber counts for example. Your contempt for "Youtubers and reality stars" doesn't mean they're not examples of people becoming sex workers out of choice, and that sex work is normalised amongst younger generations.

(and it wasn't the spouse of a reality star doing "naked guitar", that was Tyler Posey the actor, just for clarification)

@Winesalot

Bottom line is both parties have made an informed choice.

There is a massive difference in feeling that you actually have a choice though. Do you honestly believe that the majority of sex workers are doing this because they have made a choice between career options? Like, it is either this or working for Sainsbury’s or being a cleaner?

And that once they start they feel they have the complete freedom to change careers?

Of course, what about the rather large number of trafficked sex workers.?

The change part is hard your right I’m with you on that it must not be easy. Although it’s possible like drug users and alcoholics you can stop with assistance.

I thought OP was speaking about general prostitution btw.

I think if you have been trafficked then you don’t have a lot of choice and you are being forced and are in a very powerless position.

What am trying to say is. How have someone got themselves into that position? They maybe once worked in Sainsburys and fallen upon hard times your speaking as though that’s all they ever were a born prostitute.

Why did they start in the first place? That’s what I was getting at! I by no means would encourage anybody and I certainly wouldn’t be happy if it was my friend or family member. Lots of people are facing difficult times in the pandemic... would that mean they turn to sex work?

(and it wasn't the spouse of a reality star doing "naked guitar", that was Tyler Posey the actor, just for clarification)

Phew! Thank goodness we got that cleared up!

Women can choose to stay in their hometowns and be unemployed. Or they can move to a city and do menial work. Or they can move to a city and do sex work. Often they will try all three. Most women will stay where they were born. Some will move to a big city. Most of those will stick with the menial job but some will want to do sex work. This is the reality for many women around the world. This is how it is for most sex workers in the world. There are some who are enslaved but that is true for other types of work too. There are people who understand how to counter modern day slavery and we should let them get on with it. There are women who don't want the menial jobs and we should let them get on with it too.

Phew! Thank goodness we got that cleared up!
I didn't say it was important, I just clarified the situation.

3) you'd be buying a service from someone in the same way you could buy a massage and they could turn people down in the same way a masseur could

A masseur can turn business- any business can- but they cannot do so if the reason for doing so is a protected characteristic.

Bella Thorne made $1 mill in 24hours on Onlyfans

The whole point in the 'Bella Thorne Only Fans Scandal' was that she didn't post any nudes. She said she was going to, that's how she made a million dollars, but then the pics were clothed and so everyone wanted their money back. The whole reason she made shit loads more money in a couple of days on there without showing anything, than most of the women in there ever make is because she was already a celebrity.

And Aaron Carter... Really? He clearly has major issues as well as a quite serious drug problem, I hardly think he is a good example!

Can you give any examples of actual successful celebrities who make loads of money through sex work? No, of course you can't. They don't need to.

I actually think it's quite offensive you have chosen Aaron Carter as a 'good example' of someone who is doing sex work. It's common knowledge that he had a pretty fucked up past (a lot of shit happened in his own family), with possible sexual abuse along the way as well, and he openly has multiple drug issues, including crack, meth and heroine.

But because he was on frigging 'Dancing With the Stars' he should be held up as an example of how sex work should be normalised? He needs help, not encouraging to post nude pictures of himself on OnlyFans because it's 'normal'!

@KnightsofColumbusThatHurt Yes, but he's an example of a celebrity who doesn't NEED financially to do sex work. I would never subscribe to his account (nor would I anyone's really), I'm just giving examples of the fact that sex work is getting normalised through the use of celebrities especially amongst young people. If he needs help then he absolutely deserves access to help.

I was sexually abused and have an addictive personality, so to assume I'm not empathetic to his plight is wrong.

Bella Thorne also suffers from mental health issues and was apparently abused as a child actor throughout her disney years.

@Whatsnewpussyhat If she does, then I genuinely feel for her - it's an incredibly difficult thing to work through.

Anyway, that was me expressing my viewpoints and just making it clear that sex work IS being normalised (whether you think it's good or not) and that not all sex work is done by women who are desperate for money. Those are the points I was attempting to make.

What makes you think Aaron Carter doesn't need the money? He has been declared bankrupt in the past (3.5 million dollars of debt), has a serious drug problem, and probably continues to live way beyond his means.

I'm still waiting for you to name a successful, wealthy celebrity who does sex work purely for the lols?

I think part of with those like Bella is that they think by doing porn stuff they are in control of it instead of realising they are still being abused/exploited but in a different way.