10yo son accused of being transphobic, help me write to school

[flowery]

I am trying not to be too angry, but my 10yo came home yesterday saying I'd be pleased to know what he said about transgender at school. It was a discussion amongst his friends, not with the teacher present and not as part of a lesson, and he'd said it was not possible to change sex.

Apparently one of his friends said he was transphobic for saying so. He doesn't seem worried and doesn't want me to make a fuss, and it doesn't sound like it was said to him in a nasty way. But I'm not happy.

I've got no reason to think the school is teaching any gender woo stuff, I don't think they're particularly 'woke', but I want to check. I'm also not sure what to do about the accusation. I don't want my son to feel he can't express a view or say biological sex is real without someone else accusing him of any kind of 'phobia'.

He's not shy and is popular and quite a strong character, but that's not the point.

I have the new government guidance so I am planning to write to his teacher, probably in a 'not making a fuss don't want to get anyone into trouble' kind of way, just asking how they teach this subject and reiterating that I would like to be sure that it is clear to children that someone disagreeing with them isn't a phobia, that it is is not literally possible to change sex, and that differing opinions are perfectly fine.

I seem to remember someone somewhere linking to some kind of table done by the NHS where it says it's not possible to change biological sex. I can't find it, does anyone know what it was and perhaps have a link?

Plus any thoughts on how best to handle it would also be appreciated.

@Flapjak

Lemonsifficult, is it a fact the earth is a sphere, or is that just an opinion?

When does opinion become fact?

If someone is stating a fact, then that can never and should never be a hate crime, even if it is being said to a person who holds said false belief that humans can change sex.

Is someone born male but with a female endocrine system, female secondary sexual characteristics, female appearing genitalia and a female presentation necessarily a man? What if uterus transplants come on stream, or stem cell treatments allow growth of internal organs or genetic treatment switch testosterone producing cells to estrogen producing ones (something already achieved in animal experiments). I think the claim that human's can't change sex, as in it is and will always be impossible, is probably an opinion rather than a fact. I'm not even saying it's an opinion I agree with but I'm not sure it's as clear cut as you suggest.

@Flapjak

Isnt that what jkrowling said and got death threats? You must be on twitterlite if you 'believe' what you just wrote

No JK Rowling wrote a tweet mocking trans inclusive language and then a very long essay giving her opinions which many of her 16 million followers felt was transphobic. If she had merely said I don't think someone can fully change biological sex but I recognise trans women as women and trans men as men and believe that is how they should be socially and legally treated then I suspect people would have had a very different reaction.

I think the claim that human's can't change sex, as in it is and will always be impossible, is probably an opinion rather than a fact

Did anyone say that humans would never ever at some point in the future become able to change biolgical sex? If you have to add extra bits in to argue against something, you've already conceded the point.

Humans cannot, today, change biological sex. That is a fact, not an opinion.

That makes no sense jj. What does a socially acquired "gender" have in common with biological sex that one should be treated interchangeably with the other? And while you're at it, I'm still waiting for your robust definition of the word "gender". C'mon, gender believer, spit it out.

Then jj you are on a different twitter than I am. Yes, I follow quite a few trans people who have a good grounding in biology and, like you and I and many here, that sex cannot be changed.

However, I have seen plenty of others who express this and are not ‘tweeting 100 times a day that transwomen are men’ etc and they get piled on.

Wonderful that you don’t see it, but I do.

Isn't that what JK Rowling wrote

No.

If a child asked you if human beings could fly, would you tell them it wasn't clear cut because it might be possible in the future?

@YouKidsIsCrazy

I think the claim that human's can't change sex, as in it is and will always be impossible, is probably an opinion rather than a fact

Did anyone say that humans would never ever at some point in the future become able to change biolgical sex? If you have to add extra bits in to argue against something, you've already conceded the point.

Humans cannot, today, change biological sex. That is a fact, not an opinion.

But that adds a caveat. The statement "humans can't change sex" makes it sound like a law of nature which it might not be, so it's an opinion. And someone might consider that a fully transitioned trans person is now closer to the opposite sex to the one they were born and as such may be reasonably placed in that category. Another opinion. You may think it's a shit opinion. You may think they are wrong. But there is no iron law that says physical sex is based on chromosones or gamete production. If someone's says I base physical sex on the appearance of genitalia and endocrine systems I think that's a reasonable opinion to hold even if I might disagree.

I'm watching a tv series where people store their consciousness on a little disk that they can implant into whatever body they can afford. Who knows what may be possible in a 1000 years. Back in the 21st century, biological sex can't be changed and it would make no sense for someone who believes in this to say that yes, trans people are actually the sex they feel they should be unless we are happy to change the definitions of woman and man to mean whatever we'd like them to mean.
Am wondering what skin you have in this game, jj?

I would leave it. It wasn’t a discussion that the teacher had anything to do with.

No JK Rowling wrote a tweet mocking trans inclusive language

If we are forced to give up the word women to be trans inclusive then yup, I'm gonna end up mocking what you call trans inclusive language.

If the only way you can imagine including trans, is excluding women, then we have a problem.

This really isn't a school issue. For all you know this other boy might have a transgender person in his family, you've no idea where he developed his opinions from, I assume your child developed his from his home environment. Kids call each other worse all the time, I would not be getting involved let alone involving the school.

@Mischance

Put away your pen.

He made a point, someone else disagreed with him. That is life.

Do not blow this out of proportion. They are children experimenting with having their own ideas and views. He needs to hear views that are not prevalent at home. It is how he will learn what he himself thinks. He has no problem with that and does not want you to make a fuss. Does that carry any weight with you, or are you prepared to ride roughshod over his views?

Jump down off your soapbox and leave it be.

Agree

@RuffleCrow

That makes no sense jj. What does a socially acquired "gender" have in common with biological sex that one should be treated interchangeably with the other? And while you're at it, I'm still waiting for your robust definition of the word "gender". C'mon, gender believer, spit it out.

I'm not scared of saying it, I've said, it, I;m just bored of typing it out.

I believe gender identity is the individually experienced internal sense of ourselves as male, female, or neither, which maybe produced by social or biological forces or a combination of both, no-one knows except it's something many people, not just trans people, report experiencing.

I believe gender as a societal force is a set of socially imposed behaviours which we are conditioned to perform both consciously and unconsciously and which functions to lock male domination over women in place.

JK Rowling wrote a tweet mocking trans inclusive language

No. JK Rowling wrote a tweet mocking woman-erasing language.

Does trans inclusion require the erasure of women?

What you describe is a form of religious faith in something so vague it's impossible to prove. While you are entitled to whatever anecdotal and unproven beliefs about the internal sensations of the human psyche you like, you still haven't given any justification for why the wider population should regard these unprovable internal sensations as interchangeble with the hard facts of biological sex. Where is the data which shows "geñder identity" is more than a niche fantasy amongst a small percentage of the young and naive and autogynephiles?

@RuffleCrow

What you describe is a form of religious faith in something so vague it's impossible to prove. While you are entitled to whatever anecdotal and unproven beliefs about the internal sensations of the human psyche you like, you still haven't given any justification for why the wider population should regard these unprovable internal sensations as interchangeble with the hard facts of biological sex. Where is the data which shows "geñder identity" is more than a niche fantasy amongst a small percentage of the young and naive and autogynephiles?

The data which shows gender identity is real is the existence of millions of trans people, all over the globe, as well as the many non trans men and women who have also reported having a sense of themselves as male or female. Anyone objective would say there is a phenomena there, you can call it gender identity, you can claim it's all a fetish or a trend or a mental illness, no-one can know for sure but the evidence certainly points to it being somewhat more complex than those things.

Am wondering what skin you have in this game, jj?

Ditto

Why would you need your son to be 'comfortable' expressing his opinions? I always say express your opinions dispite the fact you may feel uncomfortable. Difficult topics aren't always easy to discuss

Am wondering what skin you have in this game, jj?

Ditto

What is that even supposed to mean?!
Somebody disagrees with people on here/expresses a different opinion (shock horror) or mentions that they're trans, and FWR automatically goes into Pound Shop Sherlock mode with their coats, glasses and pipe as "must have an ulterior motive/agenda/skin in the game!"
It's honestly laughable how it goes try to paint different opinions as Norty Big Bad Forces!

@jj1968

Not to mention the legislation, which recognises gender.

I believe gender identity is the individually experienced internal sense of ourselves as male, female, or neither, which maybe produced by social or biological forces or a combination of both, no-one knows except it's something many people, not just trans people, report experiencing.

I believe gender as a societal force is a set of socially imposed behaviours which we are conditioned to perform both consciously and unconsciously and which functions to lock male domination over women in place.

I support trans people being legally and socially recognised and treated as their aquired gender would barely ruffle a feather

If gender itself is a societal force, how can gender identity be anything other that a social force? Gender identity cannot exist without gender.

Incidentally, I fully agree with your second statement and even with your first with the caveat that I only agree with it in the case that gender identity is socially produced, not biological.

I also agree a transgender person should be treated as of their acquired, or rather their chosen*, gender.

However, gender is not sex. It can't be, or there would be no such thing as transgender. And there are times when for reasons of health, safety or just human fairness, we legally or socially segregate by sex. In those situations, legally and socially recognising someone's gender does not and should not mean being required to treat them as the opposite sex.

(* Acquired gender is a meaningless term if gender is a social construct, because all genders are acquired)

You can indeed, but you're still wrong. And you don't get to tell other people that facts are opinions. (well, we can't stop you, but the stupidity will be obvious)

You don’t get to tell people that opinions are facts.

I do not think this issue is about views on transgender at all. It is about whether the OP should take some action over a discussion that happened between two children on the playground.

It is certainly not a school issue. No staff were involved.

It is not the case that her son is hurt and upset and she needs to find a way of comforting him.

It is clear that he wants to put the matter to rest, because to him it is not a matter of great import.

He has learned that people have different views. A lesson we all need to learn. A good lesson.

He has also learned that it might be best to keep his mouth shut near Mum because she might go overboard and cause him embarrassment in future.

Keeping open communication channels with her child is an important goal. One which is in danger of breaking down.

Mmm. So becoming 'inclusive' for someone else involves reviewing or rescinding the rights of women as a class. I'm not sure I agree with that in principle or in action. When the actions of one cohort of people starts to tread on or adversely impact on the rights of another cohort of people, I think at that stage their focus and actions have strayed beyond their own sphere and it is not a 'right' anymore.

That is basic John Stuart Mill. Self-regarding and Other-regarding actions. You can do all you like if it only affects yourself. However, you don't have a right to impinge on someone else. That is where the other person's rights begin.