10yo son accused of being transphobic, help me write to school

[flowery]

I am trying not to be too angry, but my 10yo came home yesterday saying I'd be pleased to know what he said about transgender at school. It was a discussion amongst his friends, not with the teacher present and not as part of a lesson, and he'd said it was not possible to change sex.

Apparently one of his friends said he was transphobic for saying so. He doesn't seem worried and doesn't want me to make a fuss, and it doesn't sound like it was said to him in a nasty way. But I'm not happy.

I've got no reason to think the school is teaching any gender woo stuff, I don't think they're particularly 'woke', but I want to check. I'm also not sure what to do about the accusation. I don't want my son to feel he can't express a view or say biological sex is real without someone else accusing him of any kind of 'phobia'.

He's not shy and is popular and quite a strong character, but that's not the point.

I have the new government guidance so I am planning to write to his teacher, probably in a 'not making a fuss don't want to get anyone into trouble' kind of way, just asking how they teach this subject and reiterating that I would like to be sure that it is clear to children that someone disagreeing with them isn't a phobia, that it is is not literally possible to change sex, and that differing opinions are perfectly fine.

I seem to remember someone somewhere linking to some kind of table done by the NHS where it says it's not possible to change biological sex. I can't find it, does anyone know what it was and perhaps have a link?

Plus any thoughts on how best to handle it would also be appreciated.

"What if uterus transplants come on stream, or stem cell treatments allow growth of internal organs or genetic treatment switch testosterone producing cells to estrogen producing ones (something already achieved in animal experiments). I think the claim that human's can't change sex, as in it is and will always be impossible, is probably an opinion rather than a fact"

Regardless of the advances of future mediciine, and the frankenstein idea of transplanting uteruses into male bodies. Humans cannot change biological sex. If science ever gets that advanced, trans people probably wont exist as they will have found the mechanism that results in people feeling they are in the wrong bodieds and treat that instead of going down the route of changing body parts.

I think we're in futuristic or Sci-fi territory now. What about all the cryogenics operations which were so avant-garde a while back? Did the people who paid to keep their bodies frozen until they could be brought back to life get what they paid for? Maybe we'll be able to get new bodies as our old one ages, too. Keep changing as the old ones come decrepit. We'd have to stop having babies, though or the world will become overcrowded. Not to worry, maybe we'll have homes on the other planets or other galaxies by then.

Do you not understand how language works? You don't get to make up your own meanings. "Opinion" means one thing. "Fact" means another. They are not interchangeble. One can't change into the other just because you say so. LIKE SEX.

You're like a dog with a bone. You don't agree with my use of a word. I get it. Well done, you challenged it, I stand by it.

Bet there's a spelling mistake or maybe even a grammatical error elsewhere on MN that you can go rage about instead of my absolutely correct use of the word 'opinion'.

Good luck

@MintyMabel

You can indeed, but you're still wrong. And you don't get to tell other people that facts are opinions. (well, we can't stop you, but the stupidity will be obvious)

You don’t get to tell people that opinions are facts.

It is not possible to change sex. That is what the boy said and that is a fact. It's not an opinion. Can you explain in what sense you believe that is an opinion? It might not always be a wise thing to state this fact, and it might not always be a kind thing to do, but it is always a fact

Let's just say that it is my opinion that my car is a food mixer. I say you can disagree with me, but I'm standing by this as my own 'opinion' (sic).

Since we're going down the rabbit hole, does that mean that I can drive along without a licence and insurance? In my 'opinion', I'd be driving a food mixer, not a motor vehicle.

@Blibbyblobby

If gender itself is a societal force, how can gender identity be anything other that a social force? Gender identity cannot exist without gender.

I think that's difficult to know for sure. In a post gender world would trans people exist, who knows, but gender identity for most trans people also involves an internal sense of how the physical body should be.

Incidentally, I fully agree with your second statement and even with your first with the caveat that I only agree with it in the case that gender identity is socially produced, not biological.

It's not a hill I'd die on but I don't think anyone can say with complete certainty.

Sorry Difficult but "Opinion" means one thing. "Fact" means another

Your incorrect use of the word opinion has been correctly challenged.

Gosh, what an entirely comparable argument.

Driving a car without a license and insurance because you think it's a food mixer truely is the same as someone who has been through surgery and is taking hormones and is just living their life happily being recognised legally as the sex they now are.

Your incorrect use of the word opinion has been correctly challenged.

Thanks for your opinion duly noted.

Your incorrect use of the word opinion has been correctly challenged.

Thanks for your opinion duly noted.

" Is someone born male but with a female endocrine system, female secondary sexual characteristics, female appearing genitalia and a female presentation necessarily a man"

" Female endocrine system" ? Do you mean a male body pumped with cross sex hormones?
" Female secondary sexual characteristics"? Do you mean artificial breasts inserted into a male chest.
" Female appearing genitalia" ? Do you mean surgically altered male genitalia shaped to imitate the appearance of female genitalia.

I wouldn't be involved at this stage. A private conversation. With his friends, which has had no repercussions is not a school involvement. Different if it had been taken further by the other student, but it wasn't. Nothing currently to contact the school about

I wouldn't assume that this is something being promoted by the school, so I wouldn't contact the school to complain. However, as a parent you do have the right to ask what materials are being used in PSH education and I would check this without referring to the playground incident.

@334bu

" Is someone born male but with a female endocrine system, female secondary sexual characteristics, female appearing genitalia and a female presentation necessarily a man"

" Female endocrine system" ? Do you mean a male body pumped with cross sex hormones?
" Female secondary sexual characteristics"? Do you mean artificial breasts inserted into a male chest.
" Female appearing genitalia" ? Do you mean surgically altered male genitalia shaped to imitate the appearance of female genitalia.

Yes, a fully transitioned trans women on hormones for a long time will have breast tissue, changed nipple structure, female type fat distribution such as a subcutaneous layer of fat, female body hair patterns, and a whole range of other more subtle pysical differences as well as genitalia which looks like a vagina. If you sent her back in time to before trans healthcare and her body was externally examined she would be declared a woman and that would have been considered a fact. So I don't think it's a wholly unreasonable opinion for someone to think she is now closer to female than male and as such has changed sex. And that's assuming when someone says sex they mean purely biological sex and not social, or legal roles. Of course lots of people would have diferent opinions. But I think that's what they are really, opinions.

My eleven year old knows that it’s not possible to change sex. Yes she had likely been influenced by my own views on the matter but she sees it as pretty basic: a pair of high heels and lipstick do not make you a woman.

@JenniferSantoro

I wonder what message you give him at home for him to come home and say you’d be pleased with him saying a person couldn’t change sex. It sounds very much like the narrative you’re feeding him at home is transphobic, rather that neutral. A ten year old doesn’t just develop these views without input from someone.

But you can't change sex. You can adopt a preferred gender, but you can never change sex. Even if you have the full 'op' you have not changed sex. This is not discriminatory or transphobic, it is a medical and biological fact.

I'm all for people being who and what they want to be. But biological facts remain. I would never go up to a trans person and say 'yeah but you're a man really still, sorry' even though it is biologically true.

It's the difference between sex and gender that people fail to grasp, and perhaps you could do a little research before you come on here and accuse the OP of teaching her 10yo to be transphobic.

@334bu

" Is someone born male but with a female endocrine system, female secondary sexual characteristics, female appearing genitalia and a female presentation necessarily a man"

" Female endocrine system" ? Do you mean a male body pumped with cross sex hormones?
" Female secondary sexual characteristics"? Do you mean artificial breasts inserted into a male chest.
" Female appearing genitalia" ? Do you mean surgically altered male genitalia shaped to imitate the appearance of female genitalia.

Yes, a fully transitioned trans women on hormones for a long time will have breast tissue, changed nipple structure, female type fat distribution such as a subcutaneous layer of fat, female body hair patterns, and a whole range of other more subtle pysical differences as well as genitalia which looks like a vagina. If you sent her back in time to before trans healthcare and her body was externally examined she would be declared a woman and that would have been considered a fact. So I don't think it's a wholly unreasonable opinion for someone to think she is now closer to female than male and as such has changed sex. And that's assuming when someone says sex they mean purely biological sex and not social, or legal roles. Of course lots of people would have diferent opinions. But I think that's what they are really, opinions.

" Yes, a fully transitioned trans women on hormones for a long time will have breast tissue, changed nipple structure, female type fat distribution such as a subcutaneous layer of fat, female body hair patterns, and a whole range of other more subtle pysical differences as well as genitalia which looks like a vagina. If you sent her back in time to before trans healthcare and her body was externally examined she would be declared a woman and that would have been considered a fact."

BBC News - Milk ducts: Image of female breast anatomy goes viral
www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-48051236

I am quite sure those cavemen might feel the difference.

Lol jj stay off the trans porn. Just because you really really want that to be true, it doesn't stop wiser people thinking you deluded.

Lol jj stay off the trans porn. Just because you really really want that to be true, it doesn't stop wiser people thinking you deluded.

" Yes, a fully transitioned trans women on hormones for a long time will have breast tissue, changed nipple structure, female type fat distribution such as a subcutaneous layer of fat, female body hair patterns, and a whole range of other more subtle pysical differences as well as genitalia which looks like a vagina. If you sent her back in time to before trans healthcare and her body was externally examined she would be declared a woman and that would have been considered a fact."

BBC News - Milk ducts: Image of female breast anatomy goes viral
www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-48051236

I am quite sure those cavemen might feel the difference.

" Yes, a fully transitioned trans women on hormones for a long time will have breast tissue, changed nipple structure, female type fat distribution such as a subcutaneous layer of fat, female body hair patterns, and a whole range of other more subtle pysical differences as well as genitalia which looks like a vagina. If you sent her back in time to before trans healthcare and her body was externally examined she would be declared a woman and that would have been considered a fact."

BBC News - Milk ducts: Image of female breast anatomy goes viral
www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-48051236

I am quite sure those cavemen might feel the difference.

" Yes, a fully transitioned trans women on hormones for a long time will have breast tissue, changed nipple structure, female type fat distribution such as a subcutaneous layer of fat, female body hair patterns, and a whole range of other more subtle pysical differences as well as genitalia which looks like a vagina. If you sent her back in time to before trans healthcare and her body was externally examined she would be declared a woman and that would have been considered a fact."

BBC News - Milk ducts: Image of female breast anatomy goes viral
www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-48051236

I am quite sure those cavemen might feel the difference.

Lots of time travelling involved JJ to try and state your case that men can turn into women with help of surgery and artificial hormones. Thankfully as women we dont need to time travel for it to be true that we are.

" Yes, a fully transitioned trans women on hormones for a long time will have breast tissue, changed nipple structure, female type fat distribution such as a subcutaneous layer of fat, female body hair patterns, and a whole range of other more subtle pysical differences as well as genitalia which looks like a vagina. If you sent her back in time to before trans healthcare and her body was externally examined she would be declared a woman and that would have been considered a fact."

BBC News - Milk ducts: Image of female breast anatomy goes viral
www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-48051236

I am quite sure those cavemen might feel the difference.