10yo son accused of being transphobic, help me write to school

[flowery]

I am trying not to be too angry, but my 10yo came home yesterday saying I'd be pleased to know what he said about transgender at school. It was a discussion amongst his friends, not with the teacher present and not as part of a lesson, and he'd said it was not possible to change sex.

Apparently one of his friends said he was transphobic for saying so. He doesn't seem worried and doesn't want me to make a fuss, and it doesn't sound like it was said to him in a nasty way. But I'm not happy.

I've got no reason to think the school is teaching any gender woo stuff, I don't think they're particularly 'woke', but I want to check. I'm also not sure what to do about the accusation. I don't want my son to feel he can't express a view or say biological sex is real without someone else accusing him of any kind of 'phobia'.

He's not shy and is popular and quite a strong character, but that's not the point.

I have the new government guidance so I am planning to write to his teacher, probably in a 'not making a fuss don't want to get anyone into trouble' kind of way, just asking how they teach this subject and reiterating that I would like to be sure that it is clear to children that someone disagreeing with them isn't a phobia, that it is is not literally possible to change sex, and that differing opinions are perfectly fine.

I seem to remember someone somewhere linking to some kind of table done by the NHS where it says it's not possible to change biological sex. I can't find it, does anyone know what it was and perhaps have a link?

Plus any thoughts on how best to handle it would also be appreciated.

@334bu

Absolutely your body your choice . If you choose to spend your money seeking a body which is a facsimile of a female body good on you . However, you can't expect others to fund this unless it is treatment for some underlying physical or mental illness.

Why not? There is ample evidence that gender dysphoria if left untreated can cause distress. There are lots of conditions that are not really illnesses that the NHS treats for the well being of the person. The NHS does lots of cosmetic work for example. NHS provides fertilty treatment, IVF and contraception. So why not trans healthcare, it's hardly hugely expensive in terms of government spending. Why are we constantly trapped in a narrative of scarcity, it's so depressing

@OldCrone

I would be much happier with a female body.

You think you would be happier, but you can't possibly know that. I don't believe that anyone can know for certain how they would feel when they experience something they have never experienced before.

If I made a mistake it would be mine to live with. Still my choice though.

@OldCrone

I would be much happier with a female body.

You think you would be happier, but you can't possibly know that. I don't believe that anyone can know for certain how they would feel when they experience something they have never experienced before.

How patronising

It's. Not. About. Gender. For. Most. Of. Us.

You wrote a long post earlier where you started off by saying it wasn't about stereotypes, then went into great detail about how you look (stereotypes) and then about how you always had female role models and how you didn't fit in with boys.

If it's just about hating your male body why mention any of this?

If I made a mistake it would be mine to live with. Still my choice though.

I agree. But you can't actually have a female body. Without wanting to go back to where we were a few pages ago, it's not possible to change sex, so you could only ever have a facsimile of a female body.

And as someone who has a female body, I've often wished I didn't. Heavy periods, fear of unwanted pregnancy, smear tests, fibroids... There are plenty of negatives to having a female body.

@OldCrone

It's. Not. About. Gender. For. Most. Of. Us.

You wrote a long post earlier where you started off by saying it wasn't about stereotypes, then went into great detail about how you look (stereotypes) and then about how you always had female role models and how you didn't fit in with boys.

If it's just about hating your male body why mention any of this?

I didn't go into great detail about how I look. I said if I had a woman's body I'd probably be butch because I'm really not the type to bother with all that femme stuff and I barely do it now. I then went on to say that there have been times presenting in a female way has helped ease dysphoria to some degree because gender teaches our brains what men and women are supposed to look like. And I also pointed out that I have felt under pressure to adopt eminine aesthetics to avoid being abused in the street. I wish I didn't have to. If I had a female body maybe I wouldn't feel I had to do either of those things. If gender didn't exist anymore I almost certainly wouldn't have to - I might have still felt discomfort with my body though. I fucking hate gender, I want rid of it, it's a malign force in my life.

(I then went into some wild speculation about how my life panned out and whether it was possible that we have some kind of internal sexed identity which maybe can be discordant in some people. I have a pet theory that one reason gender is so ubiquitous in human societies is because we might have an inborn tendency to pick up cues from other, often older people of the same sex. Gender reproduces I think possibly by people copying each other. But it's just a pet theory with no evidence whatsoever. I also pointed out my experiences were somewhat at odds with my analysis and that puzzled me a bit. But I never said being trans was all about how I presented, or wanted to present or how I behaved or wanted to behave.)

So is gender dysphoria a mental illness?

@OldCrone why are you so concerned with what other people do with their lives ?

Maybe go and learn a language or so something more constructive

@OldCrone

If I made a mistake it would be mine to live with. Still my choice though.

I agree. But you can't actually have a female body. Without wanting to go back to where we were a few pages ago, it's not possible to change sex, so you could only ever have a facsimile of a female body.

And as someone who has a female body, I've often wished I didn't. Heavy periods, fear of unwanted pregnancy, smear tests, fibroids... There are plenty of negatives to having a female body.

Well I didn't do it did I. And now in middle age, and whilst I might still do it, I now have health complications that could make it difficult - I came off hormones for that reason. But not doing it when I was young feels like it was a big mistake in many ways, in as much as we can look back and regret choices. I have a son I love very much would never had existed if I'd transitioned in my teens or 20s so on that level I can't say I regret it. Lives, regrets and past choices are complex things. But if I could get one of those sci-fi fully fertile, and presumably much younger bodies we were discussing earlier I'd do it tomorrow. And if I had my time again in these more enlightened times then I'd probably transition as soon as I got chance.

I think saying "people can't change sex" when talking about transgender issues is a bit like pointing out that men can't have babies when talking about gay men adopting a child, or pointing out that women aren't in general as physically strong as men when talking about women playing football. Yes it's a fact, but placing a particular emphasis on it makes you look a bigot. Particularly if you go on and on and on about it and your right to express that fact, any time, any place, anywhere in an online debate. It's not a good look.

It's not semantic at all

It is semantic. It has also become a stick to beat people with if they dare to use the wrong terminology when talking about issues. It has become a big foghorn argument which frankly turns people off from the whole debate when actually, the only important discussion to have is about competing rights and how they are dealt with.

The rest is just unnecessary noise, with people getting all bent out of shape over an issue which is largely irrelevant.

@334bu

So is gender dysphoria a mental illness?

No I don't think it so, I thnk it can manifest as severe distress but that is in part caused by societies hostile reaction towards it. But also for many people it goes away completely after transition. So if trans healthcare was easy to access, if trans people were treated with respect in the gender they choose to become and if there were less pressure on us all to adopt gendered signifiers then I think it's likely gender dysphoria would barely exist. It would probably just be a condition of childhood which could be eased with social transition and then easily addressed if it persisted at whatever age society decided was appropriate.

@Graciebobcat so well said

And one day hopefully not too soon it will be as unacceptable as homophobia is today

Such utterly vile bullying

[quote Emmie12345]@OldCrone why are you so concerned with what other people do with their lives ?

Maybe go and learn a language or so something more constructive[/quote]
I started taking an interest in this particular area after I saw a TV programme about 'transgender children'. It horrified me and I felt I needed to understand why some people felt that they were the wrong sex, and particularly why it was spreading to children, and being promoted to children in schools as a sort of lifestyle choice - 'choose your gender identity'. Children should not be taught that they can change sex.

I find it odd that so many people get so hung up about 'gender' rather than just living their lives as they wish and I'm trying to learn why this is, because it's the adults who claim to have a 'gender identity', or believe in its existence in others, who are pushing this narrative in schools.

Why are you reading this thread if it doesn't interest you? Maybe you should find something more constructive to do.

Another well said for Gracie

if trans people were treated with respect in the gender they choose to become and if there were less pressure on us all to adopt gendered signifiers then I think it's likely gender dysphoria would barely exist.

You seem to have contradicted yourself in a single sentence there. If there were no pressure to conform to any sort of stereotype, there would be no 'gender' to transition to or from, so people couldn't 'become' a different gender. But I agree that gender dysphoria wouldn't exist without gender.

So do you agree now that doing away with gender is the way forward?

@Graciebobcat

I think saying "people can't change sex" when talking about transgender issues is a bit like pointing out that men can't have babies when talking about gay men adopting a child, or pointing out that women aren't in general as physically strong as men when talking about women playing football. Yes it's a fact, but placing a particular emphasis on it makes you look a bigot. Particularly if you go on and on and on about it and your right to express that fact, any time, any place, anywhere in an online debate. It's not a good look.

You lost me right from the start. In fact, people don't talk about men not being able to have babies when talking about gay men adopting: people just know. Gay men can adopt and that is laudable and good.

What is it about saying "women aren't in general as physically strong as men when talking about women playing football" in any way bigoted? Whatever emphasis you place it does not matter or change the truth of the statement. It just is.

The fact that people cannot change sex has to be said because some people believe people CAN change sex, but they cannot. We have to "go on and on about it" as you say because that is what you must do in the face of lies. Not like the gay situation. Not like the women playing football situation.

So if it is not a good look, is truth not a good look either?

"No I don't think it so, I thnk it can manifest as severe distress but that is in part caused by societies hostile reaction towards it. But also for many people it goes away completely after transition. So if trans healthcare was easy to access, if trans people were treated with respect in the gender they choose to become and if there were less pressure on us all to adopt gendered signifiers then I think it's likely gender dysphoria would barely exist. It would probably just be a condition of childhood which could be eased with social transition and then easily addressed if it persisted at whatever age society decided was appropriate."

Thank you for this explanation. So in the best of all possible worlds with ready access to appropriate trans healthcare do you believe that it might be possible to alleviate gender dysphoria without transitioning?

@Graciebobcat

I think saying "people can't change sex" when talking about transgender issues is a bit like pointing out that men can't have babies when talking about gay men adopting a child, or pointing out that women aren't in general as physically strong as men when talking about women playing football. Yes it's a fact, but placing a particular emphasis on it makes you look a bigot. Particularly if you go on and on and on about it and your right to express that fact, any time, any place, anywhere in an online debate. It's not a good look.

Shall we look at each of these in the light of women’s rights which is what we are in the board with many threads about women’s right to discuss?

Men cannot have babies. Exactly! Of course females identifying as men can. However males cannot.

Still, some now expect to be able to access women’s body to produce a child from their sperm via surrogacy. They tweet about it online and use dehumanising language.

This most definitely becomes a feminist issue and there are many threads discussing this. Including exploiting women who do this for the money, as well as donating eggs (is exploiting women’s bodies for money or when the benefit is unequitable ok in this instance? What other instances is exploiting women’s bodies ok?), and some end up with strokes, and other complications that result in their own infertility.

Of course, there is then the language used to describe women doing this as incubators, gestators.

There is no argument that a gay person should be able to adopt in the same way as any person. But to remove being able to discuss the truth around this allows those who wish to fight against the current trend for surrogacy (paid or coerced) which is an effect of gay males seeking to use these services. How does this protect the women involved?

We need to have the exact same discussion around the strength of male players of sports versus female too. And we need to also discuss this for hours and hours because sporting bodies have decided to ignore the evidence that when male people want to play in teams set aside for females there is high risk to those females playing and it is unfair.

Now, of course people discussing these situations need to be aware that others may not want to hear the Ins and outs. That is social etiquette If you are inclined to follow it in a social setting. However, if I read your point correctly, you believe that to even mildly disagree by stating a fact is ‘not a good look’. How has keeping this illusion going helped people so fragile that they cannot accept facts about their bodies?

You even state discussing this in an online debate is ‘not a good look’. When is a good time to discuss the issues effecting women around these facts?

So, discussion around people not being able to change sex in reality and the many effects on women and our rights the perpetuating of this fallacy is causing, is not a good look? Sounds like we are back at nodebate.

Silencing women trying to protect their rights by policing whether or not they can discuss facts to support their claims in an ‘online debate’.

Is that the look you were going for?

Excellent post Winesalot,

I would love some clarity on specifically what others think we can discuss too so I can understand where the line is that makes our concerns "not a good look". I recall a thread last week where one poster told another that even at the age of 50+ she still wasn't qualified with sufficient experience to discuss women's issues. It was ok though for biological men to wade in with their tuppence worth.

So yes, maybe a list of topics and qualifying criteria would be helpful.

I don't believe that anyone can know for certain how they would feel when they experience something they have never experienced before.

Assuming you're not trans (seeing as you don't believe that anyone can know for certain how they feel over something they have never experienced before) and are vocally GC on these threads, do you not see ANY irony at all in your comment?

Bold fail, top two lines were quoted

YES winesalot. Brilliant post.

Excellent post Winesalot.

because they feel as if they have been born into the wrong body.

Someone didn't get the memo from Mermaids!