10yo son accused of being transphobic, help me write to school

[flowery]

I am trying not to be too angry, but my 10yo came home yesterday saying I'd be pleased to know what he said about transgender at school. It was a discussion amongst his friends, not with the teacher present and not as part of a lesson, and he'd said it was not possible to change sex.

Apparently one of his friends said he was transphobic for saying so. He doesn't seem worried and doesn't want me to make a fuss, and it doesn't sound like it was said to him in a nasty way. But I'm not happy.

I've got no reason to think the school is teaching any gender woo stuff, I don't think they're particularly 'woke', but I want to check. I'm also not sure what to do about the accusation. I don't want my son to feel he can't express a view or say biological sex is real without someone else accusing him of any kind of 'phobia'.

He's not shy and is popular and quite a strong character, but that's not the point.

I have the new government guidance so I am planning to write to his teacher, probably in a 'not making a fuss don't want to get anyone into trouble' kind of way, just asking how they teach this subject and reiterating that I would like to be sure that it is clear to children that someone disagreeing with them isn't a phobia, that it is is not literally possible to change sex, and that differing opinions are perfectly fine.

I seem to remember someone somewhere linking to some kind of table done by the NHS where it says it's not possible to change biological sex. I can't find it, does anyone know what it was and perhaps have a link?

Plus any thoughts on how best to handle it would also be appreciated.

Go for it.

Okay so its down to skeletons. So if everything else was changed, if a trans women could conceive and bring a baby to term, she still wouldn't have had changed sex because skeletons?

But it's not possible for a biological male to conceive and gestate a baby.

When you watch archaeologists/ forensic crime people uncovering skeletons, it is always either a male or a female skeleton, not a transgender skeleton.

@peachsquish

When you watch archaeologists/ forensic crime people uncovering skeletons, it is always either a male or a female skeleton, not a transgender skeleton.

Actually sometimes they cant tell for sure.

if a trans women could conceive and bring a baby to term

Woah. A lot rides on that "if". If rainbows and unicorns...

"If" is not fact. Not even opinion. It is wild speculation. Get away with you and your transwomen conceiving and giving birth.

Love those straws jj grasps at.

But sure, go for it.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Okay so its down to skeletons. So if everything else was changed, if a trans women could conceive and bring a baby to term, she still wouldn't have had changed sex because skeletons?

But it's not possible for a biological male to conceive and gestate a baby.

But maybe it could be one day. I'm not saying it will, almost certainly not in my lifetime, is more a thought experiment. It would be unwise to say it was impossible, and therefore it might be possible for humans to one day change sex. But what does change sex mean? Which and how many characteristics have to be changed before it become legitimate? Surely that would be a matter of opinion not fact. And given some characteristics can be changed now then doesn't that render the statement humans can't change sex to be an opinion rather than fact? Some people may be of the opinion that physical appearance, endocrine system and secondary sexual characteristics is enough, in their opinion, to constitute a change of sex. It's certainly a change in certain physical aspects of sex, is it enough to constitute a change of sex, well I think that's a matter of opinion.

My opinion (not fact!) is that people who play around with thought experiments about the male of the species gestating young can - it is in the name- FTFOTFV and WTGTFOSM

well I think that's a matter of opinion.

I'm sure.

Love to know where you think all the organs will be donated from. Can certainly imagine many women , myself among them, would rather remove themselves from the organ donor register than have their organs used in a Frankensteinesque experiment to validate delusions.

@peachsquish

Love to know where you think all the organs will be donated from. Can certainly imagine many women , myself among them, would rather remove themselves from the organ donor register than have their organs used in a Frankensteinesque experiment to validate delusions.

They'll be grown from stem cells.

If you concede that human sex changes could one day be possible then at what point would the change happen. Chromosones, reproductive capacity, testes changed to ovaries, uterus implants, hormones, surgery? Surely at what point the change happens is a matter of opinion? There are no objective facts here.

That's a logical fallacy. Your initial statement presupposes sex changes are possible, and then you ask for a decision based on details of that invented scenario which, being invented, cannot possibly be given, and use that lack of clarity as "proof" of something about the invented scenario.

The real answer, of course is "I don't know because today sex change is not possible, but if at some point in the future it were to be possible, we would be able to answer based on objective facts that would then be known".

(That's ignoring the much more likely reality that the skeletal differences between males and females will not be altered, meaning your putative future sex-changer can never be more than an ersatz parody of their target sex).

But the concept of changing physical sex, whether possible or not, is frankly pointless and a red herring. The outcome of growing up male and switching to female is not the same as growing up female. It doesn't matter if they thought they should always have been female, the fact is they were not, and while they may have a theoretical belief about being female, they have absolutely no real knowledge of it.

Even if it were possible someday to fully change the body's sex you can't just flick that switch 10, 20, 30 or more years into someone's life and have your newly male or female human suddenly with more in common with their new sex than the one they were for most of their life. It's incredibly reductive and insulting to think that a "sex change" is somehow equivalent to a lifetime of lived experience as that sex.

But out of interest, why are you talking about (hypothetical) sex changes at all? I thought your interest was gender, which by definition is irrelevant to sex, otherwise transgender people could not exist which they clearly do.

Interesting thread about this, peachsquish. They've thought about the problem of who will donate the experimental body parts.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3605548-Imperial-College-Womb-Transplant-Survey-Redux

If you concede that human sex changes could one day be possible then at what point would the change happen. Chromosones, reproductive capacity, testes changed to ovaries, uterus implants, hormones, surgery? Surely at what point the change happens is a matter of opinion? There are no objective facts here.

Sometimes, though, you just have to ask why? When there are so many pressing issues in medicine, why would doctors spend their time and energy on attempting to remodel people into better facsimiles of the opposite sex. Why? Because of stereotypes?

I believe gender identity is the individually experienced internal sense of ourselves as male, female, or neither, which maybe produced by social or biological forces or a combination of both, no-one knows except it's something many people, not just trans people, report experiencing.

I believe gender as a societal force is a set of socially imposed behaviours which we are conditioned to perform both consciously and unconsciously and which functions to lock male domination over women in place.

So we finally have your definitions of gender and gender identity jj.

That's more or less what I think of as gender, although I would have said that they were 'expected' behaviours, since none of us are compelled to comply.

By definition, 'gender identity' is an identity based around the concept of gender. So this 'internal sense' must be based on how well we feel we conform to the socially imposed (or expected) behaviours. From this I understand that 'gender identity' is the internalised form of how we feel about the stereotypical behaviours expected of members of our sex. So it has to be all about stereotypes. How can it not be?

If women did away with make up, uncomfortable, colourful clothes, only wore functional underwear, had short hair and were fairly indistinguishable from males apart from size, body shape, and were not sexually objectified by males, i wonder how many men would be identifying as women?

Yes, because I'm sure being trans hinges totally on what you wear or makeup.

This is sarcasm before anyone misses it

" because I'm sure being trans hinges totally on what you wear or makeup. hmm

This is sarcasm before anyone misses it"

So if a person was brought up in a society where they never met or knew of anyone of the opposite sex could they still be trans? How would they know what they were?

Appearance must be a huge factor in this non-mental illness.

What is it based on there. Women cannot know the inner workings of another womans mind, let alone a man. When you identify with or as something else or believe yourself to be something other than what you physically are , you can only be associating that thing with appearances and behaviours that you observe . 99.9 % of population dont have a gender identity that knows they are male and female above and beyond their sexed bodies.

What does feeling like a woman feel like? More at risk of rape from men, periods, menopause, pregnancy, abortion, being the physically weaker sex, being the property of a male, feeling objectified, being a primary carer ? I really want to know in what ways a man thinks he can be a woman when he hasnt walked in our shoes

@OldCrone

By definition, 'gender identity' is an identity based around the concept of gender. So this 'internal sense' must be based on how well we feel we conform to the socially imposed (or expected) behaviours. From this I understand that 'gender identity' is the internalised form of how we feel about the stereotypical behaviours expected of members of our sex. So it has to be all about stereotypes. How can it not be?

Well I don't think gender identity is that for most trans people. Certainly not for me, I couldn't really care less about gender, I've certainly played around with it, but no way could I be bothered to do the whole hair and make up thing every day and I think that would apply probably even more if I'd been born female. If I could flip a switch and be whoever I wanted, or whatever I feel would be most comfortable, I'd probably be a fairly butch woman. My issue is really with my body and always has been, and that causes discomfort, or dysphoria* But of course gender, as a social force is unavoidably to some degree part of how we see our bodies and sense of self. I can make myself 'look' like more of what society has imprinted on me that a woman is supposed to look like, and to some extent that lessons dysphoria. On top of that are the social pressures involved in Patriarchy. Simply put the more femme I look, the better I pass, the better I'm treated and the less likely I am to face random abuse. It's not nice being the freak everyone stares at in the street so there is pressure to adopt feminine stereotypes and live up as best I can to feminine beauty standards (which of course comes with it's own price in terms of being more sexualised, and femme trans women are highly sexualised by a lot of men as a kind hyper-sexualised exotics). But I think the vast majority of trans people would like to get rid of the social pressure that gender inflicts. I also think there are some trans people who really just prefer the sterotypes and aesthetics of the opposite sex to the one they were born. Is that just gender dysphoria manifesting in another way, I don't know, but I don't think it's an invalid way to live, I think we need structural change to free ourselves from patriarchy and criticising people for personal preferences of expression is antagonistic really to building the kind of movement necessary. A bit like environmentalists lecturing someone about going vegan whilst ignoring the power plant in the backyard.

*just to add to that, there is something which puzzles me which is why did i automatically have female role models from a very young age. Why do I want to be wonder woman and not super man like all the other boys? Why did I tend to look to older girls for social cues and imitate them to some extent even as I tried really hard not to? Is there something internal, something I was born with, that did that? Could that be a gender identity? I really don't know, I find it quite hard to square with my own analysis of gender in some ways, but it was a thing, and despite quite happily doing boy's things as a child (I had little choice back then anyway) I never really fit in and wasn't quite like them and throughout childhood my role models were always women.

I have just seen the PSHE “Gender identity” lesson resources to be used at my school. They are a steaming pile of dangerous nonsense. They have not been shared with parents, and the poor teachers who will have to deliver the lessons have not been briefed and are expected not to question anything. (I am - loudly - but it’s not making me any friends.)

Parents should be concerned. I would try to find out what your son’s class have been told.

Why do I want to be wonder woman and not super man like all the other boys? Why did I tend to look to older girls for social cues and imitate them to some extent even as I tried really hard not to? Is there something internal, something I was born with, that did that? Could that be a gender identity?

I automatically 'identified with' the male scientists and heroes in my nonfiction and fiction reading, from a very early age.

I dressed the same as my brothers and was slightly freaked out by traditional 'girls' interests'.

It's just personality, surely?